General Question

KNOWITALL's avatar

Are you following the historic Kavanaugh hearing?

Asked by KNOWITALL (24062points) September 27th, 2018

What do you need to hear that would prove guilt in your mind?

Or if you assume guilt already, what would change your mind?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

242 Answers

notnotnotnot's avatar

Not following. I believe the women who have come forward.

But honestly, I still don’t understand why the Democrats agreed to even have a hearing at all. Merrick Garland. End of story.

notsoblond's avatar

I’m too busy to follow today. I believe her and nothing will change my mind. She’s in the prime of her career. Why would a woman risk everything, including her life, by coming forward? She is a very brave woman. I have no respect for anyone who claims this is politically motivated.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Let me ask you two this, do you trust your elected officials to vote against Kavanaugh?

Mariah's avatar

I’m listening live while I work today. So far the only conclusion anyone can make is that Grassley is a piece of shit.

Hard for me to imagine at this point that anyone will have proof one way or the other, so I imagine I will come out of this continuing to believe Ford.

Sure wish we could have taken 10 days to properly investigate this matter rather than deciding that it’s OK to hold a vote on a probable rapist to a lifetime position on the highest court in the land without any way of knowing one way or the other if it’s true.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Mariah So with zero proof and before the hearing you believe her 100%. What bothers me is that people on both sides seem to have decided already, doesnt seem fair and impartial to either party to me. Smh, politics.

Mariah's avatar

I have decided I believe her enough to warrant a full investigation and a delay of his confirmation. Stop putting words in my mouth. You’re the one who wants to confirm him without an investigation.

chyna's avatar

I don’t understand the hurry to confirm him. A full investigation needs to be done in order to confirm or deny his lifetime job into a judgeship.
He has lied once, so I don’t think I can believe anything else he says. The lie was that he didn’t party. Now he admits to partying on weekends. I have not heard of any lies that she has told.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Totally agree @chyna there seems to be a big rush to confirm this guy, and it seems not to bother the right wingers that the guy lied,(of course it wouldn’t bother right wingers lying is all they do in politics).
Ford wants an FBI investigation , they don’t, why? afraid of what they may find?
AGAIN WHY THE DAMN RUSH??

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Mariah I never said that, YOU keep saying that ha. I like to call out liars so I’m good with a delay to find out the truth.

Mariah's avatar

You were shitting on Ford in the other thread for asking for an FBI investigation prior to her hearing.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Mariah Because they had already said they would not. This is procedure, which is what SHOULD have happened weeks ago. I dont blindly believe either of them, so these hearings are important.

Mariah's avatar

I agree these hearings are important. An FBI investigation is important too.

chyna's avatar

Just want to point out, again, Obama was not allowed to confirm a new judge when Scalia died in February 2016.
That is thanks to good ol’ boy Mitch McConnell of Kentucky wanting to slant the court towards conservatives.

Jeruba's avatar

I am. I wish Patrick Leahy were president.

@notnotnotnot, Republicans have—and had then—the majority, and the Senate majority leader (McConnell) refused to allow a hearing for Garland. The Democrats aren’t running this show.

rojo's avatar

I am not listening. I have pretty much decided it doesn’t matter to any of the Republicans on the committee and listening to them would just prejudice me more in Dr. Fords’ favor. I will wait and read the transcripts before making a judgement call without all the grandstanding that will occur.

Yellowdog's avatar

The FBI has refused to investigate. There IS nothing to investigate except her testimony.

I DO believe her testimony is credible. The problem remains, however, that many people knew Ford and Kavanaugh at the time, and it is totally unlike Kavanaugh as everyone around him describes him, There are too many people who knew Kavanaugh in 1982 who describe him very differently—differently enough that the Kavanaugh described in her testimony is totally incompatible with the Kavanaugh that everyone knew in the early 1980s. They could not be the same person.

No one heard Kavanaugh’s name associated with this incident until recently. Her witnesses deny that the incidents occurred.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Rojo That surprises me. It’s already very interesting.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@Jeruba: “Republicans have—and had then—the majority, and the majority leader (McConnell) refused the hearing for Garland. The Democrats aren’t running this show.”

They are certainly playing along. Why a single Democrat played along with this is mind blowing. Take a stand. Merrick Garland should have been the end of any pretense that this was a process that anyone had any interest in following.

Additionally, if the Democrats ever get the majority again (they’re doing their best to make sure that is never the case), they should load the court. The total number of justices has been fluid over time. It’s time to just load that shit up with some voices to put the brakes on that disaster of a court, and turn things around.

notsoblond's avatar

“What bothers me is that people on both sides seem to have decided already, doesnt seem fair and impartial to either party to me. Smh, politics.”

My decision to believe the victim has nothing to do with politics.

I just went to a walk through for a possible home for my family and I found the hearing on the radio. I listened to Ford’s opening statement and had to hold back tears. I am a survivor. I felt her pain. Her testimony reminded me why I never spoke about my multiple assaults until 30 years later.

Kavanaugh comes across as a repugnant douche just like the arrogant sob’s that assaulted me.

Again, my thoughts are not guided by my political views.

Jeruba's avatar

@KNOWITALL, this hearing is not a trial, and it’s not about establishing guilt or innocence. The question is whether or not to confirm an appointment. The Senate can decline to confirm an appointment even if the candidate has an unblighted record.

Being on the Supreme Court is not a right and no one is entitled to it. Not being on the Supreme Court does not ruin a person’s life. Otherwise there’d be about 300 million of us with ruined lives because we are not going to be on the Supreme Court.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Yellowdog If you can’t post a link to your source then at least tell us the date and web site or news out let you got it from.
Because I never heard the FBI refused to investigate,what I heard from up here is the right DON’T want the FBI to investigate this, big difference.

rojo's avatar

I’m gonna call bullshit on that @Yellowdog. The FBI doesn’t have that option. If they are told to investigate, they investigate. They don’t get to pick and choose. We should not be blaming the FBI but those whose job it is to call for an investigation.

And we are all well aware that lying to a reporter or even a congressional aide is a lot easier than lying to the FBI in an official capacity.

rojo's avatar

Dammit @KNOWITALL you shamed me into watching. I had cut it off after listening to the first 10 minutes of that sniveling worm Grassley speak.drone on.

rojo's avatar

Not sure how it seems to others but the use of a surrogate to do their questioning for them comes off to me as craven and cowardly. Hiring someone else to do their dirty work, what a spineless bunch of misogynistic scumbags.

mazingerz88's avatar

Watching till the end.

Curious what Kavanaugh would do.

gorillapaws's avatar

I love how conservatives are rallying behind this fuck.

“And Jesus said, go forth and rape the girls, but let them not abort the children for they are sacred. In the lord’s name, let us pray.”

Nice fucking values…

tinyfaery's avatar

Most of the attorneys in my office are listening to it. They are saying she is a credible witness. I was listening until she started to tear up when she talked about how she was laughed at, because it was starting to trigger me. You can’t fake that, unless of course you are a trained actor or a sociopath, and she strikes me as neither.

I believe women. Sure some women lie, but the statistics on that are so low that one can easily assume that vast majority of women who report sexual assault are telling the truth.

gorillapaws's avatar

@tinyfaery The odds that one woman is lying is x% but the odds that 3 separate women from 3 separate situations are lying are orders of magnitude smaller.

mazingerz88's avatar

They haven’t even gotten to Ramirez and Sweatnick yet.

chyna's avatar

I know Ford took a polygraph test, but has Kavanaugh?

gorillapaws's avatar

Also, I suspect if the conservatives supporting Kavanaugh were jurors in the trial of a black man accused of the same crimes against a white woman with the same 3 witnesses, I’d bet over 99% of them would vote guilty.

rojo's avatar

I did not know Kavanaugh in high school but I did know a Kavanaugh clone. I think we all did. Pampered, privileged, came from money, super-jock, ran with the populars who were all just like him in action and temperment, went to parties every weekend, got hammered and got away with it, had family ties that would keep him out of trouble and above the law (as a favor to his folks and the old excuse of not ruining such an up and coming life) was on student council, had an overabundance of photos in the yearbook because of who he was. Expected to be worshiped because he was with the in crowd only they were allowed to judge each other and so who would always cover for each other because they protected their own from outsiders.
.
Was the male equivalent of the Plastics from Mean Girls, yeah, we all knew him.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Dr Ford is intelligent, articulate, believable and a she is a credible witness. Contrary to the Rep/cons with their minds made up to put Kavanaugh on the SCOTUS.
Just saw Gramham talking to the Press/Media basically going “La-la-la, I’m going to approve him !

rojo's avatar

@chyna No, he has not taken a polygraph just as he has not called for an independent FBI investigation as Dr. Ford has or for additional witnesses.

And, as I mentioned earlier, only one of them has a history of LYING UNDER OATH to a Congressional committee

rojo's avatar

I think at the very least they should make Kavanaugh pay 50 shekels to Dr. Fords father.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m watching. I find her very believable.

Moreover, I grew up in the area. Julie Swetnick lived ten minutes walking distance from me. One of my classmate’s father is quoted in a Washington Post article about Julie’s statement.

Many of you know I’m not a drinker, partly because my parents weren’t really drinkers, so I feel like it’s a family thing. Another reason is because the drinking parties where I grew up were insane. I wanted nothing to do with them. I personally know one girl who was raped at one. I knew of “consensual” sex also, and there were drugs too. These type of parties and men are part of why I tell girls don’t drink, don’t put your glass down, don’t don’t.

To hear that boys were drunk, molesting girls, or raping them, none of it surprises me.

Whether it’s enough to get the senate to not confirm Kavanaugh I don’t know. That was my other Q a couple of days ago.

notsoblond's avatar

@rojo We’ve all known a Brock Turner or two. You are right.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@rojo Ha, not my intention.I just dont understand how anyone can decide without hearing both sides.

notsoblond's avatar

^ And this is why victims don’t come forward.

tinyfaery's avatar

This is why

From above: “Using qualitative and quantitative analysis, researchers studied 812 reports of sexual assault from 2000–2003 and found a 2.1 percent rate of false reports (Heenan & Murray 2006).”

gorillapaws's avatar

@tinyfaery That would mean the odds that 3 women all falsely reported the rape is 0.0009261%.

ucme's avatar

Nah, he has a massive muppet head & this scares me a touch.

Brian1946's avatar

@gorillapaws

By cubing 0.021, I calculated 0.000009261%.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Brian1946 you need to shift the decimal 2 places to convert to percent.

Another way to frame it is if you had 107,980 cases where 3 separate women were accusing someone of rape, there would only be 1 case where it turns out all 3 women were making a false accusation. The “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard is often thought to be 99% to 99.9% certainty. This is WAY beyond that threshold purely from a probability standpoint.

rojo's avatar

@KNOWITALL I did say I was going to read the transcript if I didn’t watch. I want both sides, I just don’t want to be influenced by a totally negative reaction to the Republican Senators. Too late for that now.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@rojo Here goes Kavanaugh.

@Notsoblond Ford never claimed rape.

tinyfaery's avatar

Hey, everyone look at this!

Brian1946's avatar

@gorillapaws

You’re right.

Actually, my figure means that there’s a 0.000009261 to 1 chance that all 3 are lying, or i.e., there’s an approximately 107,980 to 1 chance that at least 1 of them is telling the truth.

Brian1946's avatar

@tinyfaery “Seal slaps kayaker with octopus in viral GoPro video”?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Brian Well it WAS funny but not very pertinent haha

notsoblond's avatar

Kavanaugh is speaking with Allysa Milano behind him giving death stares.

Victims know this man is a pos.

Brian1946's avatar

@notsoblondanymore

Allysa’s progressive activism is a nice surprise, given that her acting career was mentored by Tony Danza and Airhead Spelling. ;-)

KNOWITALL's avatar

If that calendar is real, he may get out of this.

notsoblond's avatar

I had calendars as well. I still have them. I never wrote down the bad things I did. And I did a lot of bad things as a teen. What a joke.

JLeslie's avatar

Just reporting for my Facebook friends who are Republicans and Trump supporters. Some of them are my actual friends, and others are their friends who are commenting whom I don’t know. They think Ford is ridiculous and not credible. At least one real friend believes Ford had something happen to her (my friend feels sorry for her) but that it wasn’t Kavanaugh, and that “Ford couldn’t even understand simple questions and had to keep referring to her notes.”

With that sort of thinking among Republicans, if it is widespread, I think the senators will feel empowered to vote Kavanaugh in. Let’s see what happens.

Brian1946's avatar

I can see an allegory between the video link that @tinyfaery posted and the hearings.

The octopus is Kavanaugh, the kayaker is Trump, and the seal is Dr. Ford.

chyna's avatar

Apparently he is boo hooing on the stand. He’s looking deranged

Yellowdog's avatar

When Ford was boo hooing, it was a commendable thing

tinyfaery's avatar

Just trying to lighten it up.

Also, lawyers are saying calendar is crap evidence, easily picked a part in an ACTUAL trial. In fact, most of his evidence is crap. They are dismayed that Kavanaugh knows this and is using it because lay people have no idea what credible evidence is. It would probably all be inadmissible at an ACTUAL trial. He has no business as a judge in the highest Court.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
KNOWITALL's avatar

@tiny I’ve seen other trials where diaries were admitted as proof.

mazingerz88's avatar

Anybody could put a different entry in a calendar. Ask the FBI to interview ALL possible witnesses.

@notsoblondanymore EXACTLY!

mazingerz88's avatar

Ask Kavanaugh to take a polygraph. Locate Mike Judge who is in hiding.

rebbel's avatar

Troglodyte: a person who is regarded as being deliberately ignorant or old-fashioned.

Yellowdog's avatar

@tinyfaery There is no evidence that she is a victim of Kavanaugh. Just an accusation., refuted by four people she says were there, including her best friend Leland Kaiser, who she says was there, stated under felony penalty or perjury (along with two others who denied the event happened)

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Yellowdog's avatar

@chyna why won’t her best friend at the time support her story? Why does Leland Kaiser say she never attended such party nor ever meet Kavanaugh? Why wouldn’t her best friend and confidant ever hear about this until36 years later?

chyna's avatar

@yellowdog why is his best friend Judge in hiding? Why won’t he testify?

Yellowdog's avatar

He has testified under oath, under penalty of felony perjury, before the judiciary committee.

The affidavits (of three people Judge said were there) were submitted by Senator Grassley at the end of Ford’s testimony.

mazingerz88's avatar

Did Mike Judge testified in person? Or just signed a statement?

Yellowdog's avatar

He testified before the Senate judicatory committee. The Democrats, out of protest, did not attend, most of the hearings, but are now insisting they testify again.

Demosthenes's avatar

I kept expecting Kavanaugh to say “you can’t handle the truth!”.

Also, it’s Mark Judge, not Mike Judge. Mike Judge is the Beavis and Butthead guy. :P

mazingerz88's avatar

Better let the FBI investigate and whoever is lying should go to jail.

SergeantQueen's avatar

I honestly don’t care if any of you lose respect for me over this, I know none of you and it doesn’t matter. I will most likely unfollow this question after.
I am finding it hard to believe Ford.
All of Ford’s witnesses have said that they don’t remember going.
They weren’t in the same class, or school, or social groups.
She was already graduated at the time this supposedly occurred. Why would you attend Nine high school parties after graduating? Especially after hearing what kind of shit supposedly went down?
I don’t believe this is just for the politics.
Women who make false rape accusations are just as worse as those who fucking rape. It ruins peoples lives. and It’s a disgusting act. Those who are threatening his daughters, by the way, can all go to hell. No reason to threaten his family.

I am NOT going either way. So anyone who puts words in my mouth saying I support Kavanaugh or that I support Ford are wrong.
We need to believe rape victims, but we need to make sure their credible before we go making accusations that could ruin someone’s life if they are wrong.

Demosthenes's avatar

@SergeantQueen I agree.

There’s a difference between listen and believe. I will listen, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to believe.

Ultimately I don’t think there is going to be any proof. So it’s going to come down to how people personally feel about the credibility of Ford and Kavanaugh.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Yellowdog The heck? The net search I got says Judge didn’t even see a single Senator and you made it seem he did. He communicated through his lawyer. LOL

His lawyer said he’s a recovering alcoholic and needs to be alone.

rojo's avatar

Initial reaction: Angry drunk frat boy who is used to bullying to get his way. Not saying he is drunk, just that is how he comes off, blames everyone but himself including some kind of conspiracy against him and his.

SergeantQueen's avatar

@Demosthenes Yes. I agree that we need to listen more than we believe things like crazy

filmfann's avatar

Clarence Thomas was a better liar.

notsoblond's avatar

Kavanaugh keeps interrupting and doesn’t let Democrats finish their questions. He’s acting entitled just like his buddy Trump. He does not deserve to be a Supreme Court Justice.

@rojo Right? “Hey, I bought tickets for everyone. Everyone loves me.” What a spoiled douche. He’s an older version of Brock Turner.

flutherother's avatar

I don’t expect to hear anything that would prove guilt. Those involved give their testimony to the Senate in person so we can make a judgement about the truth. On that basis I found Christine Ford’s testimony convincing and therefore I don’t think Kavanaugh should be a Supreme Court judge. He is too hopelessly tainted and I think he is lying.

JLeslie's avatar

I missed a whole bunch of it, but my husband is at the point where Cory Booker is asking Kavanaugh about Ford’s intention, and whether Kavanaugh thinks Ford did this for political reasons or orchestrated how it all came to light. Something like that. WTH? Why? It’s a waste of time and annoying. That’s not going to help get sympathy from Republicans. Why isn’t Booker just trying to find out if Kavanaugh did what he’s accused of enough? Is fine that what we care about?

mazingerz88's avatar

Kavanaugh just refused to ask the WH to ask the FBI to investigate, which he could and should do if he is not lying.

filmfann's avatar

Even if he is innocent of the accusations, he is showing that he doesn’t have the temperament for someone to be a Supreme Court justice.

seawulf575's avatar

I had to work today so I missed most of the hearings. But I did read a transcript of Ford’s opening statements. What I saw was what I expected. A lot of emotion with next to no actual verifiable facts. It was in the summer of 1982…sometime. Can’t remember a date. Can’t remember an actual location. Can’t identify much of anything except that she had one beer and that Kavanaugh and Judge attacked her. She states she got away and locked herself in the bathroom until they left the area and then she ran out of the house. What about the people she came with? What did she tell them…even later? She ran away from the house but still can’t remember where it was or whose house it was. It was an event that was so horrible that it traumatized her into her adult years….yet she knows nothing about it. That statement alone told me all I needed to see and I don’t see reality being represented. Let me put it in perspective. I joined the Navy more than 35 years ago. It was not as traumatic an event as being sexually assaulted and almost raped. But here’s what I remember about it: It was March 31, 1981. I signed the papers at about 4:50 in the afternoon. I remember the scores I got on my ASVAB and NFQT tests. It was an important day in my life and I remember a lot about it. If I had been sexually assaulted so badly that it traumatized me for the rest of my life, I would remember not just a name, but I would remember where and when it happened. AND…I would have said something long before now.

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 That was totally ridiculous comparing your memory retention skills when you joined the Navy to memories of someone who got sexually assaulted. You would make a perfect Republican Senator.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Going to agree with @mazingerz88 , @seawulf575 joining the Navy was an exciting time in your life not traumatic like being sexually assaulted, geez you have all the heart of a field mouse.
And you think us lefties are strange better take a good look in the mirror.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 and @SQUEEKY2 that is exactly the point. Being sexually assaulted would be far more memorable than joining the navy. Many more of the details would stick with me if I were sexually assaulted. So if the story is “I was sexually assaulted and it traumatized me for years but I don’t really remember anything about it” that story sounds bogus.

Mariah's avatar

Lol @ “I can predict exactly how I would react to trauma.” Study psychology and get back to us wulfy.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I went to three house parties I think in high school. Two I remember for sure. I never drank anything. I have no idea whose house it was or where exactly. One I was at for about 40 minutes I think. I wanted to get out of there. One I just was outside of the house. We drove there, I think I was with my boyfriend, he talked to a few people, and then we left. I vaguely remember another time, but we walked there and then walked home.

I was attacked in college in a guy’s dorm room. I think I remember which dorm it was, I definitely don’t know the floor or the room number, or anything that specific. I vaguely remember walking home in the dark and being frightened until I was finally in my dorm room. I don’t really remember the whole walk though.

Part of getting through scary times, is if you’re lucky your memory has some blurry spots.

I’m not saying whether Ford is right or not, I’m only saying going after her for not knowing every detail doesn’t compute for me. She was 15. She remembers things about the house.

rojo's avatar

As expected, this joke of a hearing showed nothing new, changed no minds and pretty much wasted an entire day.
Seawulf and Yellowdog still think he is innocent and should be selected. I still think he is a lying sack of shit.

JLeslie's avatar

@rojo Yup. That’s pretty much the deal. I’m upset about how much time was spent on this. I’m glad they did it, just not happy with some of the questioning.

Moderate Senators are calling a meeting right now.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Well @rojo You are not alone thinking he is a sack of shit.
If this nut job does get his SC seat it will set back women, and gay rights back decades but that is exactly what the right wants, plus give Trump a get out of jail free card if and when he is brought up on any kind of charges.

rojo's avatar

The big question is, if there is a possibility of foul play, do you err on the side of caution and ask the executive to pull the nomination and appoint someone else without the taint or do you do like they did with Thomas and put him in position anyway.?

I don’t have a problem with a more conservative supreme court (actually, I do but the conservatives have played the game better than those goddam dems and deserve to win) I just don’t want a scumbag in the office. There are plenty of clean judges out there who hold much of the same views. Put one of them in there.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Knowing the right and how they have no real morals they will probably just appoint him anyways.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^They will. The mid-term results would show us if this SC debacle had some impact. Maybe.

rojo's avatar

This is what you need to take away from that entire circus:

“Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter, the uproarious laughter between the two — their having fun at my expense.” Christine Ford.

Yellowdog's avatar

@rojo Actually, I found Ford’s testimony very credible from her emotional, traumatized state, and I believe evidence was credible that Kavanaugh had a drinking problem in high school. I reserve judgement, however, because of the facts presented and testimony that the event never happened or was not remembered by three people who were supposedly there.

I think the entire thing was handled horribly for both Ford and Kavanaugh. It was an effort to make a spectacle in front of the whole world that was watching. It was not an effort to present cautionary information to the senate, which would have been fine with me.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog Easier to push this through and accept 36 yr old behavior than start with a new nominee. He swore to God, that means something to many people.

Jeruba's avatar

@tinyfaery, that is positively the best thing that happened today.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Yellowdog If you can reserve judgement…would you support Senators who don’t and might vote tomorrow pushing this nominee forward?

Events started getting realy ugly when Garland wasn’t given fair treatment. You can blame the Republicans for that.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie You remember you went to parties in high school and nothing happened. But you remember going to the parties. You got attacked in a guy’s dorm room. First off, I’m sorry for that happening. I have a particular despite for guys that attack women because I have known some. But let’s review. You remember the guy and the college. Finding his dorm room number would be easy with college records. Did you report the attack? Do you remember the date? Do you remember how you got to that guy’s dorm room? You said you remember you walked home. Did you talk to anyone about that incident when it happened? Or did you sit on it for 30 years? I’m willing to bet you remember a lot about that night beyond just the attack. You already remember more than Dr. Ford. My point is that there are certain things I truly believe you ought to remember to have a credible claim. You know where it happened to you. You know how you got home from there. You probably know how you got there and what the date was, at least within a day or two. If asked, you could probably come up with what he was wearing. These are things that could be used in an investigation to help get you justice.
What we have with Ford is a claim that is 35 years old, that has a story that has changed several times since she first told it, that she can’t identify the location or date…not even to the month. She named 4 witnesses all of whom deny ever having been at a party like the one she described. One of the witnesses was even one of her good friends. It starts losing credibility with all those holes. In an actual criminal proceeding, you couldn’t get into court with a story like that.
The alternative to all this is that we live in a society where you are guilty until you can prove your innocence. Imagine that. I could make a claim that you tried to stab me and I wouldn’t need to have a location or a date or even a corroborating witness. But I would be right until you could prove it never happened. But because there are no details, you have nothing to use as a defense. So you are just guilty. Is that the society you think we should live in?

JLeslie's avatar

I don’t remember his name. It was my first date with him. I don’t remember the date (as in day and year) at all. Some time in 1988 most likely. I remember his bed was on the left as you walked in the room. I remember how strong he was.

As far as parties, I hated the house parties, and never purposely went to them. I wound up at them a few times, because I was with a friend or my boyfriend who wanted to go. I didn’t go with friends to the senior trip to Florida, because I knew it would be a drunken party.

I was depressed in my young teens from loneliness, because most of my friends from elementary, as we got older, started drinking and doing drugs, and I didn’t. I was not in that scene at all really. I faked it a couple times. Finally, I got a job, and my friends from work didn’t drink or smoke or toke.

My boyfriend would drink and get hi sometimes, but he put no pressure on me to do it, and he wasn’t extreme in his partaking.

I went to dance clubs and stayed out til 3am dancing, no drugs or drinking.

As young as age 14 my curfew was 1am when I went out with my work friends. I had the bad rep among some parents, I was staying out so late. My school friends were “good” kids with “better” parents and home for their curfews at midnight. The cops usually broke up the drunken house parties by midnight.

notsoblond's avatar

ffs @seawulf575 I was raped by two guy friends when I was 15. I don’t remember what they were wearing or what the date or month was. I can’t even remember whose house it was. One of the boys, but I can’t remember which one. This was 30 plus years ago. I blocked that shit out after I told friends and they didn’t believe me. I was only 15! Same age as Dr. Ford when her attack happened. What I do remember is exactly how it happened. The tickling. The moment one picked me up and carried me to the bedroom. The moment he plopped me on the bed and got on top of me. I asked them to stop. They didn’t. They took my pants off. One held my hands above my head and put his penis in my vagina. The other tried to shove his dick in my mouth. I pursed my lips. I cried. I said no. I said stop. They didn’t. He told me to “take it.” “Suck my dick.” The guy holding my arms fucking me finally let go. I jumped off the bed, put my pants on and ran to my nearest friends house who happened to be the cousin of one of the boys. He didn’t know what to say. It was his family. He couldn’t help me. I was left all alone. I walked home but stopped on a corner, sat on the sidewalk and cried.

So no, I don’t remember clothes or what month it was. I do remember how violated I felt. How dirty I felt. How alone I felt. I do remember who it was and exactly what they did. This is exactly what Dr. Ford remembers. I can find them on facebook. I blocked everything else out. But go ahead and tell us how we are supposed to deal with this and what we are supposed to remember. smfh

JLeslie's avatar

I wasn’t raped. I got away in about a minute. I was lucky. It was terrifying for that minute, and I was afraid walking home. I think it’s very different than being raped. Although, for Ford, it was very traumatic for her. I was older, I was in college, Ford was only 15. Although, as a young teen I certainly had some uncomfortable things happen.

Memory is tricky.

My experience is people who have very full stories with lots of details about every facet are lying. They have made sure they have every answer they can think of for their story. Don’t confuse that with certain details being etched into someone’s brain because it was so traumatic it can’t ever be forgotten.

notsoblond's avatar

I tried telling women that what happened to the women hurt by Louis C.K. didn’t compare to rape. That didn’t go over well at all. This is when I learned we can’t decide for others when they feel violated. Rape doesn’t need to happen in order to feel violated sexually. I had other experiences that didn’t involved rape and they were just as traumatic.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I’ll generalize here, but don’t take this as a blanket statement, because each person has events affect them differently. Women who have been raped, or through a lot of abuse over time, tend to make it all as equally traumatic in my experience. Once something really horrible has happened, worthy of PTSD level, then any “lesser” thing triggers their anxiety to practically the same height. That’s what I have observed anyway.

More than once I have guessed correctly someone had been raped in the past by how they reacted to something in the present that was not ok, but just not that big of a deal for a lot of people that they couldn’t brush it off easily. Not that I think people should have to brush of an assault at any level.

Today as I watched Ford, I wondered what else had been done to her that this one incident affected her so dramatically. I’m sure that pisses a lot of women off that I say that. I do not mean that what was done to her wasn’t terrifying, criminal, and horrible. It was.

Yellowdog's avatar

I know my answer will please no one on either side.

As credible as Ford’s testimony may have been, and as doubtless as I am that she is a victim of sexual assault, this is not enough to ruin Kavanaugh’s life, career, and family. Ford has no corroborating evidence or witnesses. The only witnesses named deny any memory of events, and one did not even know Kavanaugh or remember the events of the party. Kavanaugh had a very detailed calendar / diary from the summer of 1982. There are hundreds of people who knew Kavanaugh in the Summer of 1982 and before who say it is wholly inconsistent with his character.

then, there’s the timing and ethics of the way this was handled. It was meant to draw international attention rather than find truth, which, had it been to uncover truth, would have been brought to the senate much earlier during the vetting and hearing procedures. the onslaught of additional accusations, as incredible and unsubstantiated as they are, would continue throughout the ‘investigation’. Kavanaugh has had to sit through ten additional days of vicious and vile attacks and threats already, after more investigation has already been levied against him than anyone in Supreme Court history.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Yellowdog Is this what you think this is all about, Kavanaugh’s life and keeping it safe from ruin? What about Ford’s life? Not as important?

Yellowdog's avatar

If she is truly a victim of Kavanaugh, you are right.

But I see no evidence outside of her testimony. And Di-Fi leaked it to the New York Times so it was part of a strategy.

Ford is absolutely, 100% sure it was Kavanaugh but cannot give detail of anything else.

JLeslie's avatar

I’ll say what another jelly said on another Q. Maybe the Republicans should have let Obama pick a nominee.

The Republicans started the crazy shit of blocking replacements any way they can. It’s insane that they would think it’s ok to not let a sitting president name a nominee to the court. What was the excuse? It was Obama’s last year? You get what you give, and now probably forever more nominating someone to the USSC will be dragged out and incredibly disruptive.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Yup. If the Democrats were the ones who did that asshollery of stealing a SC seat, I would not blame the Republicans if they do what the Dems are doing now.

Also, seeing the Dems defend someone like Kavanaugh with three women coming out with essentially the same claims and still ramming him through the nomination process, they deserve to lose and lose big in elections.

Yellowdog's avatar

So, you think it is possible that Kavanaugh (in the case of the third accuser) ran a gang-rape ring where girls were being drugged at at least ten parties associated with one high school, and boys were in line to gang rape these drugged girls—and nothing was ever said about it?

Ramirez (the second accuser) has no story with even a single concrete detail except someone who might have been Brett Kavanaugh stuck his penis in her face. everyone named denies it and says it is inconsistent with Brett Kavanaugh

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@mazingerz88 Let’s hope that is the case, we will see in the mid terms hopefully this will piss a lot people off and vote these idiots out come November.

Yellowdog's avatar

Yes, I really think you can do this, if you try.

mazingerz88's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 That’s the least people could do. Care and vote out these Republicans.

rojo's avatar

@Yellowdog about the gang rapes. Yes, I do believe it. It did happen. It happened in my high school crowd a half a country and a half a century away. Can I tell you who? Not any more but in HS I knew. Fuck, they bragged about it afterward! Was it a weekly occurrence? No. But it happened more than once and it was the same group of guys, all jocks, who did it. Did anything come of it? No, mostly the girls mostly kept it to themselves and in many cases blamed themselves; it was their word against a bunch of guys who denied it and who were the high school elite. Who was going to believe the girl. I think the worst part about it was the bragging that went on afterwards.. Imagine having to go to school where half of the population was snickering about the fact that you got raped.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Yellowdog No one is claiming Kavanaugh ran a gang-rape ring. Stop watching Fox News for a while. He was there but no one said he ran it. You did though. See the problem?

About Ramirez, where’s the link showing that everyone named denies it? And had they been properly investigated?

rojo's avatar

@Yellowdog if you find “Ford’s testimony very credible” how do you bring yourself to vote for Kavanaugh knowing that there is that taint of doubt surrounding him and that there are hundreds of other fully qualified judges out there that do not have that cloud hanging over them? Again, is it not better to err on the side of caution if you are unsure?

Yellowdog's avatar

I did find Ford’s testimony credible. I realize also that Kavanaugh probably binge drank and got drunk more than he will admit.

But the evidence suggests that he was not at that party and that it was a little out of the normal circles and bounds Kavanaugh hung out in. Different locale near the Country Club. Ford was a Country club preppy Kavanaugh ran around with the Catholic Jesuit preppies Kavanaugh also treated his accuser with respect in his testimony, not doubting that she was sexually assaulted even while angry with the Democratic senators for how they handled this.

Erring on the side of caution, by your definition, would mean that you believe Kavanaugh is a serial rapist. Do you really believe someone who has been entrusted with white house security codes and been through six FBI investigations since 1993, that something of this magnitude wouldn’t have been discovered by the FBI before now? Nowhere in his history do we see this kind of behavior reported or uncovered by anyone—until recently, when he was supposedly a very active attender of gang rapes and sexual assaults

mazingerz88's avatar

The Republicans would do and say anything to deflect from the fact they are terrified of an FBI investigation, a Mark Judge appearance and extending the nomination process despite all of that being the fair and logical next steps to take.

seawulf575's avatar

^And the Dems would do and say anything to avoid confirming Kavanaugh. They would use a sexual assault story with no evidence to destroy his life before confirming him. They have no reason to NOT confirm him other than the story they contrived. They would push for another FBI investigation into him to delay having to vote on him.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I’m not accusing Kavanaugh of this, but wouldn’t someone swear to God and then lie, if they felt it would achieve something God would want? Like having someone on the court who could affect the US on a more Godly path. Abortion comes to mind. Lying to save a life, how would God look at that?

I think it’s very possible Kavanaugh doesn’t remember Ford, but does know he was a lush, and I think he purposely hurt girls when he was trying to show off to friends. That’s what some of his reactions said to me. He knows he was a fuckhead in school, even if he doesn’t remember details, that’s what I think.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I can answer that. Humans can and do lie. Often they do it in the name of God. But God frowns on that sort of thing. How do I know? Because of #3 of 10. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain”.
But let’s turn it around. Would a liberal lie under oath if they felt it would help the liberal agenda? I think they would. I have had a number of jellies on here say that any action is okay if you are doing it to stop “evil”. But evil in their meaning is anything that doesn’t support the liberal agenda. I think it is very possible that something happened to Ford 30+ years ago. But she doesn’t know any of the details and there are no corroborating witnesses, not even her own friends who were supposedly there. I think she decided to use that as a claim against Kavanaugh to stop him from being confirmed because that is way bad to the liberal agenda. And Feinstein’s behavior on all this confirms that, that’s what I think.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I’m not accusing the religious or republicans of anything, I’m just asking a religious question, because of what @KNOWITALL stated. It’s just a question, a curiosity, no judgement. Believe it or not there are liberals who believe in God too. I don’t believe in God, I’m not Christian, and I have no idea how Christians especially think about these things, but @KNOWITALL usually does know.

I think in Judaism there are allowances for lying, I vaguely remember a movie about a hijacking back in the 70’s or 80’s (I’m pretty sure it was a true story) where a man denies he’s Jewish, and then he is fraught with horrible guilt. He is reassured by another passenger that God would want him to deny or lie to save his life. I don’t know if a person swears to tell the truth so help him God, if it’s still ok. I don’t even know if it’s actually written somewhere that God understands, or if the other passenger just wanted calm the man who was so upset about having lied. I think Christianity has allowances too. You can be forgiven.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie No, there is nothing that would make me swear to my God while lying.
I wish it was more clear cut. I wish it would have been handled differently. I wish Ford and Kavanaugh had been treated better.
What stood out to me, tbh, was the Dems badgering him about an FBI investigation, and Kavanaugh getting no info on the situation after multiple meetings with Feinstein.
Again, I think through various party differences, the hearings cant be counted as any Rep loss at this point. All the Reps I know are really fired up now.

rojo's avatar

Meaning no disrespect but I could swear to your god while lying if it served my purpose and therefore put very little faith in someone who uses this pledge as proof of their honesty. I have known too many people, both people with faith and people without, liberal and conservative, male and female, who will lie no matter what if that is what they think it takes to get what they want.

rojo's avatar

Here is Robert Reich’s take on the proceedings:

“Brett Kavanaugh showed himself to be a vicious partisan – a Trump-like figure who suspects leftwing plots against him, who refuses to take responsibility for his actions, who uses emotional bullying and intimidation to get his way.”

“Kavanaugh may still get on the Supreme Court, but after today there can be no doubt about his temperament or character, or his politics. A large share of the public will never trust him to be impartial. Many will never believe his denials of sexual harassment. Most will continue to see him as the privileged, arrogant, self-righteous person he has revealed himself to be.”

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I haven’t watched the news this morning, but I know my Facebook last night was fired up with Republican friends.

@rojo The Clintons and Democrats said the same thing for years, that the right wing was always concocting plots, anything, to get rid of Bill Clinton when he was president.

For most people, how you view a situation, depends on what side you are on and who you like.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie that’s okay…it’s a fair question. As I stated, humans lie all the time. We are flawed that way. And people do it in the name of the Lord, all the time. But my take is that God doesn’t approve. Your question made me do some more research as well. I know that the Quran allows for deception if you are smoothing over differences or trying to get the upper hand on an enemy. I don’t know about Judaism though since it is based on Mosaic law (the 10 Commandments) I would suspect lying after swearing by God is likewise forbidden. Christianity decries it. The bible is full of references, in both the old and new testaments, that say lying is wrong: Here are a few. There are many, many, more, but you get the gist.

Proverbs 6:16–19 ESV
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 12:22 ESV
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.

Proverbs 19:9 ESV
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

Psalm 101:7 ESV
No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.

Colossians 3:9–10 ESV
Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Proverbs 12:19 ESV
Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue is but for a moment.

Luke 8:17 ESV
For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

1 John 2:4 ESV
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Ephesians 4:25 ESV
Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.

But very few people practice what the bible preaches. I think lots try, but they are sinners nonetheless…we all are…and flawed so they fail. The best I think most of us (Christians) can hope for is to try every day. And no, this is not a recruiting pitch…I’m not trying to convert anyone.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@rojo No offense but you aren’t probably a christian then. He will have many believers on his side now more than before.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Does it bother you that he had trouble answering some questions. When asked about blacking out or forgetting things when drunk he wouldn’t answer, he even asked the person asking the question if she had had that happen. That is in my opinion his way of lying badly.

He was obviously overthinking and not just answering. He knows if he says yes, that then he can be accused of possibly not remembering what he did allegedly to Ford.

My MIL firmly believes that her silent treatment, passive aggressive style, means she’s not a liar and she’s a good person.

@seawulf575 Thanks did taking the time to do that.

rojo's avatar

You are correct in your assumption @KNOWITALL and he already had their vote.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Jleslie I think anyone in his position with a lot at stake, is Very careful with his words.
I’m honestly not comfortable saying either of them is 100% innocent or guilty. I need proof.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I agree with that, wanting to be careful with words is probably a very human reaction, and also maybe heightened since he is a lawyer. I said the same thing about Clinton answering about sex regarding Monica. I don’t know where you stood on that, it doesn’t matter, but I just see so many parallels and so much hypocrisy in politics in the last 20 years it’s mind boggling to me.

I do think Kavanaugh trying to turn the question back on the asker is a “tell” like in poker. It’s not just evading the question, I think it’s admitting he has blacked out. I don’t think that means he necessarily did the attack on Ford, but it does mean to me he did a lot of drunken madness probably in his day.

A college classmate has come forward saying they were trashed a lot in school. She pointed out being drunk on nights and weekends doesn’t mean you still can’t do well in college. I agree with that. The things aren’t mutually exclusive. Her point was he is not the saint he tries to make himself out to be and that studying doesn’t exclude partying. His schtick about that is ridiculous.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie He did get smart a few times and shouldnt have, agreed. But I understand it, and have done the same thing-in the face of injustice.

I dont care if he got drunk or likes beer still, doesnt make or break a rape accusation.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

He totally lied about always treating women with dignity and respect his whole life, the news the other day showed his year book and what he wrote about going all the way with this one girl.
If it’s true then he lied about being virgin clean till way beyond college , if it’s not it’s still a lie about treating all women with respect.
And this is the poster boy the right must have, RIGHT NOW, shows what the right is all about now lets see how all this plays out in the mid terms.
What I still don’t get is the urgency of getting this guy through so fast, maybe the Rep/cons are indeed scared of the mid terms, regardless of what their fake tan,thin skin leader says.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL He isn’t accused of rape. Attempted rape maybe. Sexual assault yes.

I can have a temper too, don’t get me wrong. I’m fascinated by people who can’t keep their cool constantly. I don’t think I would lose my cool in while being questioned like him though. Not if I was being totally honest. I’ve had to give a deposition, I’ve had a lawyer grill me and try to get me to say something I don’t intend to to screw me up. I never felt like losing my cool, I felt like stating my truth.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I feel that’s what he did. Even many Dems said his emotion was probably what will win the vote.

JLeslie's avatar

I have a typo. It should read I’m fascinated by people who CAN keep their cool all the time. I come from a screaming and yelling Jewish NY family who kind of fit in that stereotype of talking with their hands and raising their voices. I was watching the documentary RBG and she seemed so calm, persistent, and patient. So incredible to me. I hope to be able to be more like that.

If Ford had been more emotional I think a lot of republicans would have made fun of her or called it fake tears or performing.

Edit: when the Clintons used to say it was a Republican witch hunt, if they had lost their temper would the same republicans be empathetic?

I think most people are situational and don’t apply this sort of thing evenly it fairly. Some do, most don’t.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Got ya! Sounds fun, mine was like yours, very vocal.

notnotnotnot's avatar

Holy shit. I just viewed a couple of clips of Kavanaugh avoiding answering questions. I wouldn’t let that doughy, ruddy fuck near my family – never mind control the lives of people for generations.

Look, the Republicans are going to be able to get their country/world-destroying court. But I’m really surprised they picked such a loose cannon sociopath to do it. They could’ve picked some other Federalist Society pick that was a woman. That would have at least eliminated the assault/rapist angle. And shit, the whole identity angle would have gone far enough to let the nominee sail through. But this motherfucker is evil right on the surface. There’s no getting around that.

Fuck him, any politician that has voted for his nomination (including you, Flake), and all Republicans. Yes, all Republicans. Fuck. You.

rojo's avatar

@notnotnotnot

Yeah, heh heh, a female Federalist Society pick! Heh heh.

Oh wait? You weren’t joking?

Oops.

notnotnotnot's avatar

^ There are plenty of female reactionaries that would enact the shitshow that they want to proceed with. But you’re right – they probably wouldn’t trust a woman to carry through with the evil. But shit, couldn’t they find someone a little more groomed for this? Kavanaugh is about as unlikeable and creepy as Ted Cruz.

mazingerz88's avatar

@notnotnotnot Lol Just a couple of clips? Wonder how you would feel if you saw the whole thing. Plus his appearance last week as well.

rojo's avatar

Ya know,, if this is a job interview he just yelled at his interviewers and called over half of his future bosses scum that are out to get him. Not what I would consider as a possible employee.

mazingerz88's avatar

Great. Finally more investigation. Hopefully we would know more about what really happened that day. The truth would set Kavanaugh, Ford and the country free.

seawulf575's avatar

@rojo let me help you. First off, if he were selected to the SCOTUS, the senate is no longer his bosses. They are a separate part of the triumvirate. Secondly, what the Dems did was disrespectful and underhanded. They wasted time and politicized what they claim is a valid concern for a victim on a sexual assault. Their actions have smeared his reputation with unfounded accusations and innuendo and it has put his family in harms way. They deserve to be dressed down in the public venues since that is apparently how they want to play things.

rebbel's avatar

I liked that he held his composure so good.
Holds much promise for his future tasks in the Court.
That a well-balanced and emotionally stable person decides over life altering laws.

rojo's avatar

No, you are correct the Senate is not, we are. That is why I referenced them as the interviewer. WE are, supposedly, his bosses.
You give as hard as you get. The Dems were just following the lead of the Republicans who exclude them from any role in the process, push the proceeding through on a totally artificial and arbitrary deadline and are in an ends justify the means mindset. You learn from your opponents and the slimeballs dominating that meeting are masters at sleaze.
Kavanaugh smeared his own reputation with his poor little rich boy who is not getting his way temper tantrum.
And if you are referring to Grahams little diatribe during the session as a “dressing down”, I guess you could look at it that way or you could see it as yet another vulgar display of a man with no control over his emotions. Either way it was a good laugh and a way to break the tension in the room. The only thing he could have done better was to fling poo at the Democrats. THAT would have been frikken hilarious.

rojo's avatar

Hey, @seawulf575 here is an interesting little video for you. Collaboration from Kavanaugh Calendar

If you don’t bother to point out that there were three other boys then I won’t point out that “at least one other boy” falls under the subset of three and we can save some time.

Interesting detail for the FBI to follow up on, and three other potential persons to contact and interview. Don’t you know Tom and Bernie and “Squi” are scrambling right now.

seawulf575's avatar

Hey @rojo here is an interesting thought on your citation. It proves nothing. Kavanaugh had many entries that included Judge and PJ. The one presented looked like it was from July 1 1982. That is a Thursday and not consistent with Ford’s testimony. That is a game played by the Dems. Sorry…you lose again! And even Whitehouse can’t say for sure anything happened. He is making gross assumptions in an effort to smear Kavanaugh. And you are weak-minded enough to buy it. How pitiful are you?

chyna's avatar

Well it’s now in the hands of the FBI.

rojo's avatar

It was not meant to prove anything. It was an attempt to broaden your horizons and help drag you out of the swamp slime you are enmeshed in. And, I would hazard a guess that you do not know whether there are more entries that list both of them and beer all on the same day. You are making sh*t up to match a narrative that you can support
And Whitehead doesn’t say this is proof, just that it happened and it fits the time frame. Quit making sh*t up.

flo's avatar

Can anything more be found with FBI investigation other that what was in the hearing yesterday, (unless someone comes up with a video (if someone claims to have been in that bedroom). And even then, ...
Yesterday (Sep.27/2018) everyone including the FBI, heard/saw it from the 1st person/s mouth.

rojo's avatar

Depends on how intimidating the FBI chooses to be and how thorough.
Even with six previous checks, they would have only done one semi-thorough one and five cursory ones (“Has anything changed?” “No” “Ok, everything looks good.”) and unless they had a specific reason to ask specific witnesses then the chances are very high that they did not speak to them. That goes for Mark Judge, PJ and Squidgie (or whatever his nickname was.
And seriously, you thing Judge is gonna say “Yeah! Me an ol’ Brett had some pretty good times with that beer and those triangle games!”.. I doubt it.
And some congressional aide calls you up and asks you if any of this crap that you are named as witness, and possible accessory to are true what are you gonna say? Particularly when the party asking is probably leading you in the direction they want the answers to go.
So, yes, the FBI could make a difference and they can also make a much more robust investigation now knowing there are others with similar recollections of abuse and inappropriate behavior.

Yellowdog's avatar

The other two have not checked out. The first one didn’t, either, but at least Ford seems to really believe this happened to her and that Kavanaugh was the perpetrator.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Yellowdog This is from an article in the NYT.

On Thursday, he gave misleading answers to questions about seemingly small matters — sharpening doubts about his honesty about far more significant ones. He gave coy answers when pressed about what was clearly a sexual innuendo in his high-school yearbook. He insisted over and over that others Dr. Blasey named as attending the gathering had “said it didn’t happen,” when in fact at least two of them have said only that they don’t recall it — and one of them told a reporter that she believes Dr. Blasey.

seawulf575's avatar

@rojo so you admit it is nothing but innuendo? Thanks. And yes, it is enlightening. It tells me and the whole world you cannot tell the difference between fact and innuendo. Thanks for playing.

seawulf575's avatar

@flo no they can’t. They have been given all they will get from Ms Ford which is nothing. They got the names of Mark Judge, Patrick Smyth, and Leland Keyser as witnesses. They have all sworn under oath that they know nothing about any party like that. They don’t have a date or even a month the party supposedly happened. They don’t have a place. They have basically nothing they didn’t already know. And nothing else to find.

rojo's avatar

@seawulf575 Yep and, after all these years of ignorance, maybe now you too will be able to tell the difference.

Next week we will work on getting you to recognize fact from fiction (or alternate fact is the term your type likes is it not?) but that is going to take a lot longer.

seawulf575's avatar

@Rojo no thanks. Trying to take lessons on how to identify facts from someone that can’t is sort of a lost cause from the start. But coming from the looney left, what did I expect?

notnotnotnot's avatar

This was the best part of the hearings.

JLeslie's avatar

I wonder if the Democrats did anything to research Ford’s Claims when she first contacted her representative and the other politicians became informed about it. Did they just take her word and sit on the information?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I suspect no one has actually looked into it. And Dr. Ford has been a bit…umm…contradictory? about this whole thing. She stated she didn’t want to go public with it, but then gave the WaPo her therapists’ notes. I know…she doesn’t remember if she did or didn’t…but how else could they have gotten them? And when asked to testify she jumped at it. And then she claimed she couldn’t fly to DC because of a fear of flying. But when asked about other pleasure trips she freely said she flies on those. So can she not fly or can she and if she can, why the delay? And all this was manipulated by the Dems. I don’t think they cared if the story was true or not. As you can see, it doesn’t have to be true to ruin a guys life.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I think the Dems care if it’s true. I think they believe it’s true.

Having a fear of flying doesn’t mean she doesn’t fly. I have a girlfriend who is afraid to fly, but she does it. She waited until her kids were out of high school. My grandma waited until she was 62 and felt both of her children were doing well and her last grandchild had been born.

People get on plains with Xanax or alcohol or Ambien all the time to quell their nerves. I’m not saying she was medicated, I’m just saying it’s not unusual. People with those fears of flying negotiate with themselves whether they are willing to fly for the thing they want to fly to.

I think likely part of Ford wanted the information out and part of her knew it would be a mess and she likely wouldn’t be believed.

I think she felt compelled to do something. I think she really believes to her core that someone like Kavanaugh (the way she sees Kavanaugh) shouldn’t be a judge at all, let alone on the Supreme Court.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 Has done in depth investigation (NOT) of Dr Ford fear of flying. ! !

I think @seawulf575 has done in depth investigation of nothing but Ultra-Rightwing blogs including the KKK’s and other hate sites. (But that is my considered opinion !)

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I don’t know if Dr. Ford was attacked by Kavanaugh or not. No one really does except Ford and Kavanaugh. But I still feel the way things played out was very suspect. Dr Ford notified Feinstein about the time Kavanaugh was nominated. That might be just that she saw him on the TV and it might have been that she planned from the start just to smear him. At this point it is an exercise if futility to guess. But as I said, there was much that seemed contradictory. You say the Dems care if the report is true and they believe it is true. Then why didn’t Feinstein share the original report in July with the rest of the Judiciary Committee? That makes no sense. It could have been brought up and a quiet investigation could have been started without a 3 ring circus. That would have helped keep Dr. Ford more out of the limelight. But Feinstein sat on this information and even helped Ford select good attorneys. In fact she was helping her select attorneys while the confirmation hearings were going on. That sounds amazingly like preparation for a smear job. Helping someone find legal representation to come testify when there is no apparent reason for needing that testimony? That sounds not like they care or even believe it is real, but that it is a contrived, premeditated attempt at a smear. If they cared, if they felt it should have been investigated for the sake of the victim, it would not have played out as it did.
We talked about fear of flying. I agree it is a real thing. I agree that many people have it. Dr. Ford may actually have it. But to claim you can’t fly and then have it come out that you fly all the time seems disingenuous. It appears more as a stall tactic than anything else. It should not have been a surprise that she was going to have to fly. So if flying makes her uncomfortable, she should have psyched herself up. Or better yet, Grassley offered to fly to California to hold the hearing there. She declined. Why? that would have solved the whole thing. No, she claimed she needed time to drive across country. But she flew anyway. And she flew across country in August for a family vacation. She flew to Hawaii, Costa Rica and French Polynesia to go surfing. She has a debilitating fear of flying, unless she wants to apparently.
The story is that when she went to Feinstein, she wanted to get her story out but didn’t want it to go public. ??? Seems contradictory. She didn’t want to go public with the information, but then gave the story including her therapists’ notes to a newspaper. Guess she had time to do that since was going to fly instead of drive to the hearing.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie you amaze me. You are like an annoying mosquito that buzzes near your ear once in a while, never really landing and committing, but just to be a pest. But you do it well. Here’s a thought…your insipid and inaccurate attacks on me really offer nothing up in the way of intelligence to the conversation. They hurt me not at all since (a) I don’t know you or care about your feelings towards me and (b) I have seen enough of your chat on these pages to know that you have no wit. So please…feel free to continue. I have called you on your errors before and you have avoided actually addressing that. So I don’t expect you ever will. In your heart you know you are a fool, but just can’t come out and be honest about it. You have my sympathies.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@All Ford specifically said she wanted them to come to her, then she realized that was impossible and decided to fly.
Also I heard Feinsteins husband is an associate of Ford. Havent researched that yet though.

seawulf575's avatar

Actually, Grassley did offer to fly staffers out to CA. Ford declined. Instead, she waited until testifying to say she wanted them to fly to CA but didn’t think it was possible. When Grassley corrected her, she said she didn’t understand what his message had meant. Again….more excuses of ignorance from what is supposed to be a very smart woman.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I also did some research and found another oddity with the good doctor. Go to Palo Alto University and look up the faculty. She is listed as Blasey, Christine Ph.D. When you open it up, it just lists that she is a professor, that her focus is Psy.D. and that her area is statistics. That’s it. No picture, no bio….nothing. So I looked at a whole bunch of the other faculty. All have pictures. All have at least a page of information about them….bios, publications, educational backgrounds…the works. So why is hers so spartan? Don’t know if it means anything or not, but seems odd.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Maybe it wasn’t spartan 6 months ago and with recent attention she changed it? I have no idea.

Ford didn’t know she had the option not to fly, I believe her. Maybe her lawyers misinformed her. Maybe they liked the idea of going to Washington. I’m just guessing again, but I completely believe she didn’t know she had the option.

rojo's avatar

Someone just suggested a fun mental exercise.

Imagine, if you will, that the rolls were reversed and Ford was the SC candidate and Kavanaugh had testified that she had done something to him along the same lines all those years ago. Now, imagine after Kavanaugh testifies in a halting, completely believable manner, admitting gaps where gaps existed in his memory but answering every question truthfully and without obfucation then Ford comes out screaming about conspiracies and blathering on about her school record instead of answering questions, parsing words, sobbing almost uncontrollably, smarting off, talking back and asking the panel what they did when they were young and what they drunk as if they were the ones under review and generally carrying on the way Kavanaugh did. Would we be having this same discussion about how somebody would or could act so unprofessionally and inappropriately for such a setting or would she, being female, have been already determined as being to emotional, too hysterical and generally unqualifed to serve as a Supreme Court justice.

I think we all know the answer to that. No way in hell. Both parties would have abandoned her.

And that, my friends is what White Male Privilege is all about.

seawulf575's avatar

@rojo I would suggest yes. It isn’t the people or the sides…it is the idea that you can accuse someone with zero evidence or proof and the person being accused gets smeared while demands are made that he prove his innocence. That is so bassackwards that it is foolish. If Kavanaugh had come out with the same story about Ford, before it got to a point of Ford having to defend her honor and chew out the political party trying to smear her, I would have been throwing the brown bullshit flag on Kavanaugh. Imagine for a moment, if you will, that it isn’t about the person. Imagine for a moment, if you will, that it is actually about a screwed up accusation being brought up in a screwed up way, with screwed up demands being made based on it.

Yellowdog's avatar

White male privilege, @rojo

Are we now saying Ford is a black woman?

I thought she was an accomplished, very white, uber-wealthy Preppy Handbook progeny.

notnotnotnot's avatar

Oh, for shits sake. Accusations aside, Kavanaugh’s performance and lying during the hearing is enough to disqualify him from supreme court, any court, and start the ball rolling on prosecution for perjury.

On a personal level, this motherfucker is clearly a piece of shit, still an alcoholic, was on some kind of cocaine/upper to get him through the hearing, and really just deserves a fucking beating. Fuck this guy and anyone pretending that there is anything left to talk about.

Yellowdog's avatar

How about a record of 40 years of impeccable character? Not a mark on him. Even with SIX FBI investigations and hundreds of women who testify to his character. That counts for something.

But I’m still trying to re-imagine this WASP-y woman as a black female victim of White Privilege.

seawulf575's avatar

@notnotnotnot that statement makes me glad you aren’t a judge. And I don’t ever want you on my jury, if I ever have to have one. You have just convicted Kavanaugh without a stitch of proof being put forth. Good job. But I guess that’s what happens when you drink the kool-aid.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog What I am hearing from people is that this was a job interview for one of the highest jobs in the nation and his indignation and ‘liking beer’ comments, were felt to be a disqualifier. I can partly see it, because he did get a tad belligerent for my tastes, and I said that even as I watched it, to my husband. He needs to calm down and regroup. It was understandable imo, but showed a temper.

As for Ford, I didn’t watch her complete testimony, but I did see a few ‘sorry I was mistaken’ type situations that left me uneasy.

Personally, I empathized with them both to a degree, she as a victim (assault), he as a victim (unproven accusations.) In politics, in my experience, losing your temper or ‘cool’ is not encouraged. Passion is okay, but normally not for yourself, stay humble.

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL I might go with the idea this was a job interview, but if it was, then Kavanaugh would have a solid case for unfair hiring practices. His interview was actually the confirmation hearings, which he sailed through admirably. This part is the character assassination and political smear jobs. Indignation and outrage are probably the normal and correct reactions.

Yellowdog's avatar

Emotions aside, this needs to be based on facts.

We can deal with emotions later.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Rep/cons calling for facts that’s a good one ,HA,HA,HA.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog Tbh if it was me as the elected official who had to vote yes or no, I’d probably vote no right now.

The job is too important, too much at stake, and plenty of qualified people.

I do believe it’s possible that either of them are lying since verified facts are lacking at this time.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@KNOWITALL I will agree with you, get another candidate this guy is too tainted, I don’t get the rush and urgency of getting this guy through so fast, other than he will give Trump a get out of jail free card if and when the Don Father faces any charges.

Yellowdog's avatar

There’s your verified facts @KNOWITALL

chyna's avatar

Even Trump mentioned that Kavenaugh likes his beer too much. That he might have a drinking problem. Is this who you want for such a high position?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Squeeky @Yellowdog But see, thats where it gets tricky. The Reps should not give up just because of an unproven allegation. Kavanaugh has been in positions of power for a long time with seemingly no issues.
So basically right now it’s a pissing match, since no facts are verifiable. And we all know this is detrimental for Dems to win. Maybe at any cost. That makes me more leery of this accusation.

Yellowdog's avatar

Kavanaugh has the backing of womens’ groups, minority groups, and what has traditionally been regarded as Democrat groups. I know he has ruled in favor of black farmers’ groups who have been discriminated against over insurance and over selling them worthless crop seeds. There is no shortage of women’s groups and causes that Kavanaugh has ruled in favor of, and endorse him.

It does surprise me, @KNOWITALL that you cannot recognize an obvious smear campaign. Every witness refutes the Ford account. Now, they’re going after temperament?

Why have their been no notes or remarks about this before now? 25 years of completely stoic temperament,then rampart accusations and threats make these reactions perfectly justified. Just review some of the things the democratic senators were saying at the hearings

notnotnotnot's avatar

@Yellowdog: ‘How about a record of 40 years of impeccable character”

I don’t care what the hell he did for the past 40 years. Take any 10 seconds of him speaking during the hearing, and he is instantly disqualified. Period. Take his whole, belligerent alcoholic fucked up arrogant hearing performance, and you have someone that should be cleaning toilets in prison.

Yellowdog's avatar

Fortunately, you do not get a vote. There is a reason you aren’t in that position.

Yellowdog's avatar

P.S. Lets allow the FBI to investigate the selecting of lawyers, coaching of accusers, leaking, and witness tampering, too

flo's avatar

@seawulf575 I think you’re agreeing with me. What a waste of time and energy an FBI investigation is going to be. What exactly are people expecting the FBI to ask and find if there is no date no place etc.? Someone please answer me. Even if they were given time and place…

Someone was asking why didn’t the original recipient of the letter from Ford send it to Trump so he can ask for FBI investigation? (because she was aksing him why didn’t you ask for an FBI investigation?)

Does it sound from my post that I’m pro Kavanaugh? There is no reason to. Free ad for beer industry. I thought I heard he said “I never drunk more than one beer per week. I wish I never touched it. Even that was too much everyone. Please, don’t drink. Zero is the amount of alcohol to drink, since it’s a carcinogen”

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog I’ve ruminated and waited, paying attention. I wouldnt cover bets on his innocence with MY money, although my skepticism of politics really is being put to the test.
Me: Surely the Dems would not sink to that level.
Also Me: Review the last year.
Me: True story.

Yellowdog's avatar

Elite, single-sex prep schools often are paired with another like-mindset opposite sex school. The girls from Ford’s school hung out with a different all-male school than Kavanaugh’s. Kavanaugh’s social circle involved elite Catholic schools. Ford and Kavanaugh did not hang out in the same social circles. They were not even all that close to each other in proximity.

On Ford’s part, we do not know when the assault happened. Not even the year. Mid 1980s? Early 1980s?

Ford has no memory of who invited her to the party. No memory of WHERE the party was. No memory of how she got there. Only that she had one beer.

She has named at least three or four other people who were at the party. All have denied any memory of the event and none of her lifelong friends ever met or knew Brett Kavanaugh.

There were notes taken by a marriage therapist but they do not name Brett Kavanaugh or Mark Judge, and state that there were four people in the bedroom. Ford’s more recent allegations vary as to how many were in the room. Again, her four witnesses, some lifelong friends, have no memory of the event.

Why did Ford go into an upstairs bathroom in an unfamiliar house? why was there loud music playing in the bedroom but not downstairs?

After the alleged assault, she has no memory of how she got home, and did not tell anyone about the experience. She did not even talk about it with her friends who were at the party.

She met Mark Judge at a Safeway where he worked, but the Safeway where Mark Judge worked and wrote about was not built until 1986. She tried to be on friendly terms with him by saying Hi (despite the discomfort of the situation) but he was pale and tried to avoid her.

Kavanaugh took very detailed notes of everywhere he was and who he was with from 1980 onward. Nothing on that detailed calendar even remotely could pass for this event.

No location. No definite time. No one remembers an event Kavanaugh was at with them. No one will corroborate the story and two outright refute it. No memory of how she got there, who invited her, or how she got home. Just an accusation.

mazingerz88's avatar

Seriously? Kavanaugh’s calendar is clear evidence he didn’t do anything wrong?

He could easily had just changed the entry on those days he assaulted someone.

chyna's avatar

^Or, you know, notated the FFFF, find, fondle, fuck and forget on his calendar.

JLeslie's avatar

@chyna What’s this FFFF? Is that a real thing? That’s terrifying.

@mazingerz88 You mean change it recently? They can actually analyze the ink if they are allowed to.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie People are debating interpretations of yearbook comments.

JLeslie's avatar

My mother always said, “don’t write down what you don’t want others to know.”

mazingerz88's avatar

@JLeslie I kept a diary for at least a decade. It was in notebooks. Also kept calendars as semi-diary, semi-scheduling tool.

The thing with calendars is it truly is a great way to preserve the past for someone like me who is nostalgic and sentimental. It didn’t surprise me that Kavanaugh’s Dad did it and he followed suit.

But in my experience, it’s impossible to write entries faithfully everyday, much less at the same time. With diaries and calendar recording I oftentimes wrote a day after or even a few days after an event took place…relying on memory.

Also, advanced schedules of forthcoming events one had written down on your calendar may change without one correcting it later.

It’s quite possible Kavanaugh made his entries after that night with Ford.

It’s quite possible he was truly aware he did it and covered his tracks.

mazingerz88's avatar

If Ford’s claim is accurate that she spoke to Judge two weeks later after that night while he worked in CVS ( or is it Safeway? ) and he behaved like he was worried and didn’t want to speak to her….that could show Judge knew exactly who she was and what he did to her….which means Kavanaugh as well knew about that night simply because they’re buddies.

I think if this attack really happened, Judge is the best chance to expose the truth. If at this point in his life he managed to develop a conscience.

Yellowdog's avatar

The Safeway didn’t open until 1986—four years later

mazingerz88's avatar

Yes it’s another grocery then not Safeway.

rojo's avatar

@Yellowdog In his book, Judge claims he worked in a grocery store“the summer before senior year” [1982 – 1983]. Article

chyna's avatar

Was there a grocery store there before Safeway opened “4 years later”?

rojo's avatar

FBI could find out.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Why is it so dire important to get Kavanaugh pushed through with such urgency, there has to be other right wing freak azoids more squeaky clean, why not bring one of them forward at this time?
I did not catch a lot of this but did see Kavanaugh loose his cool during this, and this is the poster boy the right want on the highest court in the land?
Or is this urgency the fact this is the guy that will no doubt give Trump a get out of jail free card if and when he should face any charges?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Simple. Because the Dems “purportedly” staged this whole thing to get a ‘better’ candidate in and the Reps don’t want to give him up. You must understand how cutthroat politics are right now and the huge divide between party ideals.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Even if they did seeing this guy loose his cool in the hearing shows he really shouldn’t be there.
And I understand how cut throat it is, instead of working together to build a better country,just divide and have the wealthy, corporations,the 1% represented by the Republicans.
And the lower classes the poor,the working class and everyone else represented by the democrats.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Squeeky Divide and conquer, oldest trick in the book. You’re correct about that!

SQUEEKY2's avatar

So much for bringing the country together, guess the wealthy will just have to keep all the money while the working class pays all the bills.

seawulf575's avatar

@flo, an honest FBI investigation is a waste of time. There are no actual facts to investigate. But I saw an article today that explained the push for an FBI investigation. The article stated that the FBI had interviewed PJ Smyth, Mark Judge, Leland Keyser, and I think it said the second accuser…Ramirez. Maybe not Ramirez…I’m going on memory here. But definitely the other three. Their conclusion was that there was no evidence of anything that could be followed up on. BUT…then the article stated that the Dems wanted the FBI to interview another 28 people. They had a list. THAT is what this is all about. The Dems are looking to find ways of delaying the FBI investigation. They don’t want the FBI to do a fair investigation, they want to make the FBI spin their wheels even more uselessly than they already are with this case. The goal, of course, is to try postponing any vote on Kavanaugh until after the Midterms.

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL here’s the problem with giving up on Kavanaugh. If the Repubs give up on him, then the new standard is set. Anyone they might put forth as a candidate will have all sorts of unfounded allegations brought out to smear them. There will never be an actual honest hearing again. The Dems will have tainted the process irreparably.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Sorta like what the Rep/cons did with the the candidate that Obama wanted ,they basically said they would not hold a vote till after the election.
Now they want their poster boy in before the election, and it’s always the damn dems fault go figure.

seawulf575's avatar

Yep…just like that. If you notice, I haven’t fully supported that answer either. They could just as easily have pushed for confirmation hearings and then rejected Garland. It would have been the politically clean way of doing it. OR, they could have done what the Dems are doing now and ask for ridiculous amounts of background information and then toted out a couple of bogus accusers against him. They weren’t going to confirm him regardless of how they went about it so they were just more straightforward and honest about it.
But the question the enquiring minds want to know the answer to: Why does a Canuck, such as yourself, give a single good goddamn about our SCOTUS choices?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Does it hurt to be wrong @seawulf575?

Answer: No you don’t have feelings.

only Canadians call someone “canuck”, demeaning and deigning again!

flo's avatar

@seawulf575 That’s sound.
Why don’t the republicans just don’t go to the next on the short list?

seawulf575's avatar

@flo because really…this same kabuki theater would play out again and again. Ideologues can always be found that will come forward with outrageous accusations. Then the Dems act like they are credible (when they know that with no evidence there is nothing there), but they smear and stall and delay. Then we start talking about why don’t we go to the 3rd choice. It isn’t the person, it is the political games that are the problem.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie once again, you contribute nothing. You try little snipes at me but really just prove to everyone what a fool you are. Carry on….please. You certainly don’t hurt me and only make me look intelligent by comparison.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 I know you are the singularly smartest person in the world that you know . . .

But that is only two or three people you haven’t alienated.

seawulf575's avatar

Oh my! Who? I’ll work on them. Imagine how upset I must be by not having your approval.

Demosthenes's avatar

@rojo Brett Kavanaugh showed himself to be a vicious partisan – a Trump-like figure who suspects leftwing plots against him, who refuses to take responsibility for his actions

Disregarding the accusations, which may or may not be true, that right there is enough for me to think he should not be confirmed. You cannot come off as a vindictive partisan. That is not the type of person who should be on the Supreme Court. You have to at least pretend that’s not your actual outlook.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Seawulf I cant say until the FBI is done. At this point it’s a hard call imo. You have to keep in mind that high profile votes are used against these elected officials, too, at the polls and campaigns. ‘Susan voted to keep Kavanaugh then the FBI found out he was a serial rapist’....none of them can afford that to happen so they’ll move on to another candidate soon probably. Even if just out o. Self-interest.
We’ll see I guess, bit I think Kavanaugh may be persona non grata soon.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Seawulf BTW I like you and appreciate your input. Even if you used the GD words I hate (see other thread.) Haha

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“Oh my! Who? I’ll work on them. Imagine how upset I must be by not having your approval.”
It not my approval or disapproval but it is your self approval of all that comes out of your mouth and BLOGS you keep copying !

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Tropical Okay prove it. Copy his post back to back with a blog and be done. Geesh. It’s not hard to prove you’re right in this case.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@KNOWITALL If I do you like @seawulf575 will categorically ignore the proof.

I and another jelly have seen the blogs he copies. Don’t believe and doubt; it fits @seawulf575 way of seeing the world.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m watching Lawrence O’Donnell right now and he’s talking about the letter where Brett Kavanaugh signs his name Bart. For the first time I think he won’t get confirmed.

Some of the lies O’Donnell accuses Kavanagh of I don’t agree with. Like O’Donnell mentioned Kavanaugh said the drinking age was 18, and O’Donnell pointed out MD was 21. However, I can tell you that at that time the drinking age in DC was 18, which is why I always went dancing in DC, because I could get in with my fake ID that made me 18.

Not that it matters, because the lies and avoiding telling the truth that really count the most are such whoppers that I just don’t see how now anyone can vote for Kavanaugh.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Right or wrong, I think you are correct.

@Tropical I talk to him almost every day, I’d probably know if he was a racist or whatever you think he is haha

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL my apologies if the GD offended. I don’t typically use that one, though sometimes my sailor mouth comes out.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie You really are a broken record. Let’s dissect your accusation to see if you are a credible witness. You mention blogs I keep copying and in particular right wing blogs. Then, when asked for specifics, you dodge with all sorts of excuses and some mystical insight of how I think. This doesn’t look good for your credibility. I went through this with @stanleybmanly on a different thread when you were singing this same song. It is entirely possible I have cut and pasted things out of right wing blogs. I do internet searches and look for things that apply to my search parameters. But you say I KEEP posting them. So now you want to paint me as someone that frequents these blogs and that is just not a correct statement. So I will ask you to prove it. You should easily be able to trace most of my statements word for word back to a right wing blog. What? Gonna dodge? Gonna make some weaselly little snipe at me and run away? That doesn’t help your credibility either. But let’s get into it even further to help show what an extremely close-minded person you are. Let’s say I have cut and pasted from a right wing blog. You aren’t disputing the information. You just have your panties in a wad about the source. In other words, you have so little wit that you can’t find anything factually wrong with what I have supposedly posted from these blogs. But instead of maybe opening your mind and considering some other view, you want to snipe about the source. And that is strike 3. You are not credible. You are a sad little thing. I would pity you but you seem to like being that way.

JLeslie's avatar

I just set my DVR to record the show about Trump evading taxes when transferring wealth to his kids on Showtime. I’m not clear if he did it with legal tax loopholes, or was hiding the money.

I’m going to ask a Q about whether people care if he avoided taxes, even if it’s illegal.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Okay @seawulf575 here’s one Unjust System

Are you projecting @seawulf575 “You just have your panties in a wad about the source. In other words, you have so little wit that you can’t find anything factually wrong with what I have supposedly posted from these blogs. But instead of maybe opening your mind and considering some other view, you want to snipe about the source. And that is strike 3. You are not credible. You are a sad little thing. I would pity you but you seem to like being that way.”

You sir have a small one track ultra conservative mind.

Do you go to Skin-head rallies or cross burnings??

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Probably both^^ you have to fill up on right wing propaganda, you know a living wage , BAD, universal health care ,BAD, and social safety nets for the working class BAD!
NOW trickle down economics GOOD! Huge tax cuts for the wealthy GOOD. huge increases for the military GOOD!
And like the stuff for the working class where the conservatives hold their head screaming who is going to pay for that, the stuff for the conservatives they have that figured out,in short the working class is going to pay for that, and don’t you dare think the wealthy should contribute they are too hard done by as it is.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Interesting. Here’s a clue, though…I’ve never been to that site before I just clicked your link. It is possible I found the same list somewhere else. There are many that are very similar so I’ll buy that. But wait! You still have avoided the challenge. Find one is just one. You have repeatedly stated that I KEEP posting from these sites. In other words, you ought to be able to find many, many examples. Remember, I KEEP posting!
Another aspect you dodged is the fact that you are picking at the source and not the substance of the postings. Take the one you just linked. Again…never been to that site, but have seen a very similar list elsewhere. So tear it apart. You ought to be able to do so easily. It’s a right-wing blog, remember? The author of that list stated what they see as the violations AND they cited the article and section of the Constitution that was violated. You avoid dealing with that quite nicely by trying to make a personal attack on me. But you should know by now that I ignore the slams and continue to drag you back to the point. So please….show us all how smart you are and tear it apart. Explain how it is wrong step by step. If you care to look back, when I presented this information before, @stanleybmanly tried side stepping by saying there were too many and that he couldn’t take the time. I shortened the list considerably for him and he finally admitted that yes, Obama did violate the Constitution. I wouldn’t expect such an open mind from you though.
Now on to the part you just handed me to beat you with. Why is feeling that the Constitution should be followed as the law it is akin to being a skin-head or KKK member? Are you trying to say that you don’t believe the Constitution should apply? Are you trying to say it is hateful to support it? What exactly are your trying to say?
Keep going. I can do this all day.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 caught in another lie and right winged misrepresentation.

You didn’t *ANSWER *when the last time you went to a cross burning !

DEFLECT DEFLECT DEFLECT

flo's avatar

@seawulf575 What a nightmare.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Anything we post you just scoff it off as Left wing propaganda, so why are we to believe whole heartedly what you post isn’t right wing bull shit?
Can you answer that @seawulf575 or will you just go into deflect mode?

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 sure I can. When you post links and citations, I look at them. If they are opinion and innuendo (which many from the left are) they are left-wing propaganda. It is truly annoying that most of you can’t tell the difference between opinion and innuendo and facts. Sometimes I read the citation and do more research. It isn’t hard. But I read the citations and will argue based on the merits of that. But you on the left either don’t read the citations I give or you don’t like what you see so you merely attack the source without actually debating the information in the citation. I give you @Tropical_Willie as a perfect example, though he is by no means the only one. He just provided a link where he thinks I cut and pasted information. Please note that even when challenged to actually debunk the information in his own citation that he says is right wing bullshit (not his term, but his attitude), he tries deflecting. He has yet to actually debate the information.
That is where many of you fall flat on your faces. You either don’t read the citations or you don’t like the information so you attack the source. It makes you look like you are dodging. You would rather make personal attacks at me (again, I give you @Tropical_Willie as a recent example) than actually defend your positions or debate my citations and claims. “you’re wrong” is not a debate. “You’re just a right winger” is not a debate. These things are merely avoidance of the issues. If you have a strong opinion on a topic, that’s cool. Even if it doesn’t match mine. Especially if it doesn’t match mine. That is how we learn. We hear differing viewpoints and we can discuss them. But if you have a differing opinion and cannot adequately defend that position, you might be missing a chance to expand your mind by not considering any other viewpoint that might oppose your own.

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