Social Question

mazingerz88's avatar

Why can’t Trump voters be more compassionate towards illegal immigrants?

Asked by mazingerz88 (22679points) 3 weeks ago from iPhone

Excluding the obvious reason that violent and criminal illegal immigrants shouldn’t be allowed to get in, why the seemingly strong hatred towards all illegal immigrants?

As if they are the greatest threat to their existence? Is this all trump voters are capable of, supporting hateful rhetoric and demeaning punitive actions?

Are Americans generally this mean, even cruel that no matter how deplorable their president is as long as he does the job then it’s totally fine?

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89 Answers

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Trump hates “brown skins” and shows it for his fourth graders.

He was a bigot in housing rentals for his father’s business.

flo's avatar

They confuse the word illegal (the illegal is only about escaping horrid/fatal conditions) with crimes/criminality/criminals that have nothing to do with self defence/self preservation…

Harper1234's avatar

Why can’t Dems stop lying?

chyna's avatar

^Why can’t ALL politicians stop lying?

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Because they are racist.

Inspired_2write's avatar

I think that having to share the pie with immigrants coming in scares them as they may get far less than the American dream of prosperity.
I think that any person coming in is looked at as a threat to their economic welfare.
The more sharing the less each one gets, could be the crux of the problem?

Jaxk's avatar

No body hates immigrants. Either legal or illegal. The problem is real. We allow a million people per year to immigrate to the US legally. In addition to that we are on track for another million to cross the southern border this year illegally and still more that come and overstay their visas. How many can we afford to flood into the country. We must provide education, housing, sustenance, and medical care. The costs are enormous.

Legal immigration allows us to control the numbers as well as weed out crimnals or those that would do us harm. Illegal avoids any legitimate screening. The southern border states are littered with dead bodies from those that crossed with coyotes at the helm. It is neither good for us nor good for those that try. Wake up. Trying to make this about racism completely misses the point and is not compassionate.

josie's avatar

I have friends who voted for him, and when I listen to them talk it is usually because they are uncomfortable with some or all three things
1. They think the concept “illegal” should not be ignored at the same time that politicians righteously proclaim that “we are a nation of laws”
2. They don’t like that previous presidents (of both parties) have been indifferent to enforcing the law even though that is their job
3. They think Congress should do it’s job and reform immigration laws rather than pretend it’s the president’s job to do something.

Personally, no matter who the president is, I think Congress should do it’s job, and I think many Americans have no clue that there is a separation of the responsibility to make law, and to enforce it. Half the problem is plenty of people slept through civics lecture and the political class knows this and exploits it.
Shame on us, Trump supporters (I am not one) or not.

Kardamom's avatar

The lack of compassion part is about racism, coupled with fear. Plain and simple.

kritiper's avatar

It’s very hard to be compassionate when you’re dealing with illegal invaders who, one way or another, may choke you out of your life, life styles, and the basic and natural resources that make your life so livable.
Saying it’s about racism is racist itself, be it true or false. But fear it is and fear transcends all.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Sounds like a direct quote from Native American Indians.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Jaxk I don’t think it’s accurate to say nobody hates legal or illegal immigrants. There is real hateful rhetoric coming from the elected leader of voters and they continue to support him despite of it.

I think most Americans are compassionate people and deserve better leaders than the dangerous clown playing President at the WH.

Yellowdog's avatar

And what exactly is this “real hateful rhetoric”?

A lot of ACTUAL hateful vitriol and libelous, defamatory remarks are spewed daily by members of the Democratic congress and presidential candidates. It doesn’t seem to ever originate from the center or from the right.

JLeslie's avatar

I agree with @flo that Trump, and other Republican leaders, use the word “illegal” so that it sounds as bad as thieves and killers. Making them criminals makes them dishonest and untrustworthy.

Not all Republicans feel this way, plenty of Republicans understand that illegal immigrants often times are people simply wanting to come to America for a new life with more opportunity to work and be safe. However, enough Republicans do think many of the people crossing the border are bad people.

Maybe I just haven’t been around this type of talk before, but until Trump, I never heard talk of people who simply were without papers being put in the same category as other law breakers. I think it’s horrible that people think of illegal immigrants this way. I feel like telling people the old saying “don’t spit in the wind” maybe God or the universe will make you a refugee so you see what it is like to need entry.

Democrats make it sound like all of these people trying to come across were all in immediate danger in their country. Of course that is not true. I saw Anderson Cooper doing an interview and one guy at a detention center said he brought his kid with him, because where he lives everyone knows you have more chance to be able to stay in America if you have a child with you. They put their kids through risky travel circumstances because of this. I do agree we need to find a way to discourage this sort of immigration, but we need to improve our immigration policy to accomplish that.

Democrats and Republicans need to be real and honest about the situation to come to a reasonable answer to deal with this, but the politicians are incented to keep this all going as is. It will be a wedge issue at election time, and they want the issue.

Yellowdog's avatar

With more than 100,000 a month being apprehended at our borders (that’s the ones who are caught) one must ask why the Democrats are in such favor of such mass migrations of third and fourth world populations when they were so OPPOSED to it when there were only about a fourth this many just in the previous administration.

It is probably the same reason Democrats oppose investigations into voter fraud, the requiring of identification at poling places, the demands to allow felons and prisoners to vote, and the only wanting such waves of migrants to settle in red states.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

~ ~ ~ They’re cheap labor and do jobs college kids won’t do or anybody else.

NOT REALLY KIDDING!

JLeslie's avatar

@Yellowdog I think what really bothers some people is words like apprehended, illegal, invader, and invasion. I’ve heard the term illegal immigrant previous to this administration, but the other words I have not in regard to immigration. Have no doubt it’s very purposeful those words are used. It makes immigrants sound like the enemy, and that we should be fighting against them.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Dems, including Obama, acknowledged it and Obama chose to tackle healthcare instead. Hillary acknowledged it, too. Why the reversal? Because Trump continues to try to fix a bipartisan issue.

Illegal immigrants do commit heinous crimes, its a fact. I’ve posted multiple links just from my area. Kidnap and rape of a mentally challenged female, for instance. If you’re okay with that, I’d be surprised, so why cant you understand that many of us are sick of the passive approach?

If any of you did research on illegal immigrants and crime, like trafficking children for sex, you cant possibly ‘not understand’ why its a problem. How about defending legal immigrants safety? How about helping defend those women and children being brutalized?

Finally, do we hate immigrants, not at all. We hate that we cant tell if the people moving in are good hardworking people or psychotic killers because our govt has ignored this huge issue, as well as liberals ignoring facts over feelings.

Patty_Melt's avatar

I was watching Wall-e again the other day. Bear with me. It is a story, but I have a point.
I’m looking at these fat people with diminished bone strength, and I am thinking, how could they have been drifting around in space for nearly a thousand years, and not become completely overpopulated? What are they eating, soylent green? They don’t farm, never saw a plant before, what is their diet? What about clothing, bedding, robots, lightbulbs? They can’t possibly have enough resources to keep making new products for over 700 years.
It finally dawned on me that a democrat wrote the story, because those people have no sense of limitations, boundaries, and, like money doesn’t grow on trees, trees don’t grow on space ships.
Our country has finite resources.
We HAVE to turn people away.
Process must be observed, and those who come here without following legal channels are breaking the law. They are criminals, plain and simple.

Jaxk's avatar

@mazingerz88 – I can hate what you’re doing without hating you. What seems to be happening is that most Dems hate Trump so they hate what he’s doing. Illegal immigration has been an issue for decades and it’s only gotten worse with our improving economy. How can we complain about over-population, declining schools, homelessness, income inequality, poverty, etc.,etc. while advocating bringing millions of illegal immigrants with few skills and little education. Wages are depressed entitlement programs are going broke and people are literally dying in the streets. Seems like a situation that we should all hate.

Patty_Melt's avatar

@Jaxk, take a bow. So well stated.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Jaxk I’m assuming some Dems hate trump for the way he’s doing things. There is a way and it shouldn’t involve someone like him who makes the country seem small, weak and fearful imo.

I hate trump supporters for picking him to represent them. It’s so beneath how I envision Americans should behave. To me it’s demeaning and indecent. And making America “great again” this way is a total joke.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

You know who else commits heinous crimes? Natural born citizens.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I am not saying that some illegal immigrants don’t commit heinous crimes. I’m saying crossing the border without papers is not heinous.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Its easy to say that, I know. Read about the heinous crimes and tell me who you feel sorry for.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m not talking about feeling sorry for anyone. I’m talking about framing people as heinous criminal just for wanting to come to America. If they are drug runners, rapist, or killers, then whether legal or illegal or citizens or tourists, of course that is horrible and lock them up. Making the assumption someone is going to be one of those things because they cross the border is ridiculous. It’s like saying that guy drank alcohol at age 20, which is illegal, so now I believe he also is a gang banger shooting yo the neighborhood.

The terminology matters.

Patty_Melt's avatar

When a ship goes down, the lifeboats are loaded with women and children first. Know why? Because there won’t be enough room for everyone.
What is it about we don’t have the resources you don’t understand?
WE DONT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO SAVE EVERYONE!
As I have said on another thread, I do not equate our president with Jesus. He can’t take a few loaves and fishes and feed everyone.
Hold your hats, Obama couldn’t either.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Thats why I support legal immigration like most Americans do, but not illegal immigration.

That is what the OP was about. Compassion for illegals specifically.

Compassion does not override security.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Legal immigrants sometimes become rapists and killers also, just like citizens do. All groups have some bad people, including people who have families who have been here for many generations.

Let’s say Joe wants to come to America, because the situation in his country isn’t great, but he hears America is a prosperous place with opportunity. He sees the options in front of him as he can come and show up at the border, and hope to get asylum; or, he can wait in his country, and try for years to get in. Either way he is the same guy.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Patty_Melt Is that a direct quote from Trump? Not enough room !

Source please for ”*WE DONT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO SAVE EVERYONE! *”

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Joe is a criminal as soon as he chooses to enter the country illegally. Good guy or not.

A good person here can choose to drive drunk, which is a criminal act.

Both have repercussions in America.

If either major party takes on immigration reform, I’ll cheer them on.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

Ever run a red light? Ever jaywalk? Ever gone over the speed limit? Ever carry off a pen from the office or some other place of business? Ever found money on the ground that you kept and didn’t report?

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL It’s not all equal. I guess to you it is.

Let’s call the 9 year old who steals a candy bar a criminal too. Crime is crime.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, lets, because it is a crime to steal. Maybe the kid will grow up and know better.

@Darth I obey the law. If I didnt, I would fully expect to pay the price. Same as you. No one gets to be above the law. Not the KKK or illegal immigrants, or the FBI.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m not saying there is no consequence. I’m saying the use of loaded terms bothers me when there is no intent to cause direct harm to others, and no harm was caused. Someone walking into our country asking for asylum isn’t hurting anyone, except the money it costs us to patrol the border. No matter what we have border control though.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Explain again how Joe/Jose is criminal ?
Is it the color of his skin or the language he speaks?
Crossing the border doesn’t make you a criminal ; it is only in Trump’s eye bet he wouldn’t let his mother into the country.

According to Trump there is no good immigrant only illegals is that right @KNOWITALL

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie How do you gauge the intent on someone sneaking around on your property? Same thing. We dont know who they are, what their past is, or intent. If you want to allow it on your property, fine with me. But other people’s families are paying the price for people like you who seem to believe compassion is more important. Imo.

@Tropical Oh Lord, really? Crossing the border illegally is a crime actually. Go try to cross into Iran and tell me how it works out for ya.

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Tropical_Willie's avatar

Crossing the border is not a CRIME !

Show me the law not a quote from old Orange face and bad comb-over!

How easily some people fall for his propaganda.

Like I said before he wouldn’t let his own mother in the USA because she wasn’t going to make “Merica grate agin.”

Response moderated
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Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
KNOWITALL's avatar

@Tropical US Code 1325. Google it.

@Patty What did I miss lol

flutherother's avatar

The lack of compassion comes from the language used. Illegal immigrants are called drug dealers, murderers and rapists. Most of them are nothing of the kind. They are simply human beings.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

You’re telling me, with absolute certainty that you have never broken some petty law in your life? I call bullshit there.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@KNOWITALL

Your cited code is for illegal entry not for all entering into the USA; that is a entryway covered by the ICE and Customs; any alien can enter (they’re not De Facto criminals)

SO not all aliens are criminals !

You a “Brown Hater” too?

Patty_Melt's avatar

Take yer partner by the hand
Bash your leader and alamand.
Curse and toss out ugly words,
Twirl around and ketch yer girl.
Someone calls you out,
Now kick and scream on the floor.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I’m not even saying you just let them in. I’m saying I don’t like calling them criminals or assuming they are going to commit heinous crimes. I think we have to protect our borders. I think we need to hold people at least temporarily. If they have relatives here who are citizens we can have them vouched for possibly and released while we do further investigation. I’m even ok with ankle bracelets as an option while we do investigation if we don’t have enough information. Some people should be returned to their country.

I think some of the people coming are in a dire situation in their country, and some aren’t, but they are coming in because they join into the caravan. Still, think about how bad your situation would need to be to walk to the border of our country to find opportunity?

I’m not idealizing who is coming, but I do believe most immigrants want to work and find opportunity. I do believe their children quickly get assimilated, and I think that’s because America treats the children as Americans even if they aren’t. They go to our schools, they learn our culture.

I recently saw a show about Brexit and about immigration in Europe. One part a teenage Syrian girl asked the president of Germany about being able to stay in Germany, and the president said basically it won’t be possible, the country can’t absorb everyone. The girl started to cry. Why should she care about adopting the German culture when she knows in the end Germany will be making her leave?

Germany has a problem similar to America that people coming in from the Middle East see Germany as the best country to go to in Europe. When Luxembourg agreed to take in a certain number, not as many refugees went that could have, because they hadn’t really heard of the country.

I understand why Trump wants to send the message the doors are closed here, or coming in is no picnic. He wants to deter people who aren’t in desperate situations, but just think why the hell not go, America will let you in.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

“But other people’s families are paying the price for people like you who seem to believe compassion is more important. Imo.”
Wait…what?

Stache's avatar

They only care about a being while it’s still in its host. Is it any surprise they wouldn’t care for adult brown people wanting a better life in this country?

JLeslie's avatar

I really don’t think the main problem is the color of their skin. If it was Scandinavian people flooding in I think they would still want to stop them. America has proven time and time again the hatred of new immigrants. They seem to not like Catholics. “Irish need not apply” on job postings. Polish jokes were common place. Italians stereotyped as mafia. Now, it’s people from Latin America. Calling people racist when they believe in their heart they aren’t isn’t going to get you very far.

Stache's avatar

^Repubicans are in control. It’s the brown people right now.

seawulf575's avatar

Compassion for the illegals. Huh. Do they have compassion for us? They drag themselves and their children thousands of miles on a very dangerous trek…Do they have compassion for themselves or their children?
Now let’s talk about respect. Do the Illegals respect our laws? Do they respect our borders? Do the Dems respect immigration laws? Does the left respect the security of the citizens of this nation?
I find it odd that the Conservatives are painted with a very broad brush that has the entire wrong color on it, yet all the other aspects of illegal immigration are entirely ignored. As a conservative I can tell you I find it atrocious that the left has created such a shit storm at our southern border by (1) creating and defending an atmosphere of lawlessness and (2) fighting against actually taking action to change the immigration laws. My take on the changing of the immigration laws is that we don’t enforce the laws today so passing new ones would be meaningless, but at least it would show respect for the performance of the jobs they were elected to.

JLeslie's avatar

Back to the original question. They aren’t compassionate, because they can’t picture themselves in the same circumstance. They feel safe, many of them are not very in touch with the stories of how their families come to America.

It’s the same as when a Conservative Christian tells me they want prayer in school, and when I say, “what if where you lived was 70% Muslim, and most teachers in the schools were Muslim, would you still want the government law to support religion in public school, or prayer in school. They almost all answer, “I wouldn’t live in a country like that.”

Or, not being for gay marriage until they find out their own child is gay. Or not being for stem cell research until their husband is diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. Or, being against abortion until they find out they are pregnant with a fetus that has no brain. How difficult it is to learn a new language as an adult, when they themselves only speak one language.

They won’t even do the exercise in their head—what if that was me or my family?

Again, NOT ALL Republicans, I’m just talking about the portion who are like this.

Compassion does not mean letting all immigrants in, I’m just talking about being able to identify with the people trying to come into the country. Latin Americans their country are told they can go to America and find work, they are told there is no corruption in America, they are told it’s a merit system and not just powerful rich families that have opportunity.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Tropical You are literally the only jelly admitting any association with, or being actively recruited by the KKK.

@JLeslie Fact is, while you may be correct about psychology, many of us feel liberals ignore or minimalize the crimes committed.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Are you talking about the crime of crossing the border, or crimes once in our country?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I can put myself in their shoes. But I have had this discussion before. Which, to me, seems to make more sense: Paying $190 to apply for a visa for me and my family or paying $2000 to some shady character that will let me walk 2500 miles along a course where you are a target for every bad guy in the area, where women and children get raped and kidnapped, to get to a place where you have to cross a border illegally and then deal with being an illegal in that country? I’m leaning towards legal immigration. Seems a lot safer and cheaper with a better chance of the outcome I really want. If I was truly seeking asylum, I wouldn’t go all the way through Mexico…I’d seek asylum IN Mexico. It would be closer to home, to my family, should things at home change to where I no longer felt I was in mortal danger.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Well, Mexico doesn’t have the reputation America does. As I said, America is seen as a meritocracy, it’s talked about in an idealistic way within their own country. You have to understand their POV.

I actually agree that if their country is very bad then if they can’t get into America they should consider a neighboring country instead of coming all the way here.

The sister of a Venezuelan friend could not get a student visa to come here so she wound up going to another country, but I think we should have let her in! Her mom and two siblings are here. Her sister is an industrial engineer, and she was already accepted to an American university.

They pay $2k or more because they aren’t aware of a different process, or they are told they won’t get approved trying to do it the right way. The coyote who bring these people to the border are salesmen, saying whatever story to get their $2k.

I mean really, why do you think they choose to come through the border as they do? You think they won’t get a visa if their background is checked first? That their MO is a life of crime?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Crimes committed in country. Like the kidnap and rape of the mentally challenged woman here. My compassion for immigrants has limits. Sending missions or money, I understand. Fixing a bipartisan immigration reform, I understand. Defending criminal activity, native born or immigrant, not going to happen.

Every year here we have a reunion of Vietnamese from all over the country. Some are warm, friendly and very honest. Some are gangbangers from the coasts and criminals. I dont paint the whole race as worthless. Just like us, thered good and bad. But coming illegally makes me leery, as we have no idea who they are. And many legal immigrants agree its a safety risk for all of us.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I agree that we should check criminal backgrounds, or some sort of check. There are so many people here illegally who are good, hard working people though, so my pushback is about characterizing them all as bad. Most people don’t realize how many people are here without papers, people they know and interact with, and they aren’t going to know if their attitude is they are bad people.

I think we need to concentrate on crime in our country period. Why it happens, underlying causes. Why are Americans big consumers of drugs? Why do violent gangs happen? This is an American problem without any new immigrants. We are drug addicts not only on rugs coming in through our borders, but home made drugs here too, including prescription drugs. If we are attracting a criminal element it is because of something wrong in our country.

My husband would not have stayed here if he had not been given a work visa, he cares about following the rules, but he had a family with some money, and a college degree, and his country was semi-stable when he graduated. He would have returned to Mexico, or tried another country. Same with my Venezuelan friend, her sister was smart and pursuing a college degree. It’s very different when you are poor, or if your town is controlled by a mafia, of if the government where you are is practically a terrorist organization.

JLeslie's avatar

By the way, I think it wasn’t until the 1920’s that the concept of visas to immigrate to America was introduced, so anyone coming in before that came here without papers. That means the families that have been here the longest, are the ones that most likely just showed up on our shores, and fairly quickly were processed and let in.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie – You seem to be saying that everyone that is not a hardened criminal should be free to enter the US and stay. Not quite open borders but close. I can’t help but wonder if there should be any limitation at all to the number of immigrants we let in each year. ! million, 10 million, 100 million? How many can we absorb on an annual basis?

If you want to make the argument that we are all immigrants and should be welcoming to all comers, remember that we destroyed an entire race with unlimited immigration. The Indians didn’t share your view that flooding the country with white settlers (brown settlers either) was a good idea. Immigration must be controlled unless we want to go the same route.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie the story of your Venezuelan friend is a perfect example of what NEEDS to happen. I, too, had a friend that wanted to marry a Turkish woman. Her background was clean, yet the immigration process was extremely onerous. At one point, they were threatening her and treating her like a criminal for daring to want to marry an American. They even told her that just because she married an American didn’t mean she would be allowed to enter the country. People like that (the immigration stooges) are part of the problem….but not all of it. The fact that it took almost 2 years for them to get to where she could come and get married is ridiculous. I don’t know all the details of why your friend was denied a visa, but again…it sounds wrong. But that still doesn’t excuse entering illegally nor pushing to allow illegal immigration until something can be done. And the international rules concerning asylum is that you are supposed to go to the nearest nation where the cause of asylum being needed no longer exists. If you are coming from Honduras, you have to go through Guatemala and Mexico to the to the USA. I understand that the USA is more enticing, but that really isn’t what asylum is about. It’s about getting to a safe environment because your life is being threatened.

Stache's avatar

@KNOWITALL And liberals can’t believe Republicans don’t give a shit about children being shot to death by American born white men in their schools. Republicans care more about their guns than they do innocent living children.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I never have thought that ALL immigrants, legal or illegal, were bad people or criminals.
There’s no way to tell if someone is good or bad by appearances, and with some of the crimes that have happened here, it’s still fairly accepting, since it’s a big college town and missionary training area. But if you asked around, most people would say they feel safer and more comfortable, with legal immigrants.

@Stache Well it’s not true and no one’s asking for our guns. That has nothing to do with the Question, btw.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I never felt or thought you meant all, because I know you better than that.

@Jaxk I am not saying that at all. I do feel we need to protect our borders, and control immigration.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I’ll try to remember that. Sometimes it gets so intense, I forget there are a few good people here. :)

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I’m on my phone so I’ll keep this short: seawulf…were you suggesting the immigrants could get Visas for their whole family for $190, but they are choosing instead to pay $2000 to some “shady character” to walk them all the way thru Mexico instead, and putting their women and children at risk of being raped and murdered? Is that what you’re saying?

“Paying $190 to apply for a visa for me and my family or paying $2000 to some shady character that will let me walk 2500 miles along a course where you are a target for every bad guy in the area, where women and children get raped and kidnapped, to get to a place where you have to cross a border illegally and then deal with being an illegal in that country? I’m leaning towards legal immigration. Seems a lot safer and cheaper with a better chance of the outcome I really want.

Patty_Melt's avatar

Lots of illegals go with coyotes, and then are ditched so they will be arrested, on purpose. This keeps border agents very busy, and then the real money, drugs, can more easily cross undetected.

Here is a tidbit for some of you to consider.
Why would the federal government legalize marijuana, if most of the supply is currently from outside sources, and moving in untaxed, and sold untaxed? Could it be that securing the border could be followed by moving some of the previously overworked agents to other locations, such as port authorities? And with secure borders, then legalization could move forward and crops planted.
Not that I’ve heard anything, mind you, I’m just supposing.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Because in legalizing it you open it up to legitimate, licensed business to cultivate and sell. By keeping it illegal all you accomplish is to cede control of the market to criminal cartels. Look what happened once Anheuser-Busch were allowed to brew beer again.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

@Patty_Melt…can you say “Conspiracy Theory”?

JLeslie's avatar

@Dutchess_III I can’t answer for @seawulf575, but I do think the fee for a working visa application is $190. I doubt that covers the whole family, but I don’t know. There also might be additional fees like a copy of a birth certificate. I don’t know that either. What he’s not counting is if the person gets a visa, the person still needs to pay for a flight to America, or some sort of transportation. It’s probably not very easy to get a work visa. You have to already have the work lined up I would think. Maybe it’s different depending on the work industry.

They can try to get a tourist visa and work illegally (in my opinion that’s the same as being without papers) but from some countries it’s difficult to even get a tourist visa. If the plan is to overstay the visa anyway, or to work, the tourist visa isn’t worth paying for probably, except then they can get through immigration with no problem.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_lll When I last looked, a work visa was $190 per person. Some of the other visas are a little more or a little less, but all around that value. By reports I have seen, coyotes are charging upwards of $2000 per person. Yeah…it’s a no-brainer on which way to go.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 You make it sound like you simply apply and it gets granted. People do get denied. There is an overload of applications for some fields. It also takes time to process the paperwork even if it is going to be granted. There are plenty of people here already on tourist visas who want to stay and work and can’t get a work visa, and they have already proven to be good people, following our laws.

At least some of the work visas the employer has to fill out some paperwork too. There are many different types of work visas and permits. My husband had to quit his first job, because initially the employer said they would do the paperwork, and then a few months in they said as a company they stopped doing it. He was already working for them, and when he resigned they tried to keep him, and he kept explaining to his idiot manager, he won’t be able to legally work anyway in 2 months.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie And that is the real problem. It isn’t that the laws are bad…it’s that the process is imperfect. THAT is what Congress needs to address. But whether the process is screwed up or not, ignoring the laws and just entering our country is just wrong.

JLeslie's avatar

When you’re living in a poor country, can’t drink the water, paid pennies an hour, then let me know.

flo's avatar

What was Trump or whoever saying? “If it weren’t for our citizens’ high demand for the drugs or x y z items the Mexican and others bring in, we wouldn’t have a problem, so all you American citizens stop it.”

Patty_Melt's avatar

@flo, yes. Trump did say something like that the other day.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Have you ever been told no to something you wanted? Ever told your kids no to something? Did you or your kids then break the law to get what you wanted? Did you or your kids ever just break the law because you didn’t want to follow the law? Did you ever risk your lives to get what you want rather than follow the law? Ever put your kids’ lives in danger to help get you what you want?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I don’t have kids. I’ve never broken the law to get what I wanted. I have broken laws. Traffic laws (I even have a couple of tickets to prove it). Probably some other things I’m not thinking of.

I have lived in middle class neighborhoods my whole life. They were basically safe and beautiful. When I was in my 20’s and not making enough money to pay my bills, eventually my dad sent me $1,000, which helped me until I got a new job.

I’ve never had my life threatened if I don’t pay a mafia. I’ve never been hungry. I’ve never lived in a country where there was a well established guerrilla group kidnapping for money. I’ve never lived in a place overrun by drug dealers and cartel. I have a college education. I live in a country with freedom of speech and freedom of religion. I don’t live in a poor country with a rich country at or close to the border.

I have not been in their situation, not even close.

America let Cubans float in without question for years and years, and Republicans were fine with that. Many Cubans lost their lives on that trip. In Cuba they probably had housing, education, and food. Ok, they came in legally, because they were legal when their toe hit the sand, but it was nonetheless dangerous, and if you go to Miami today 70% of the population speaks Spanish. I think it’s about 60% are actually Hispanic. They estimate just over half of those people speak English very well, basically fully bilingual. Very recently, we don’t have that policy for Cubans anymore, but my bet is some of them are still floating over. All that changed is our policy, not their circumstance, and not the water between south Florida and Cuba.

Just to clarify, probably half the Hispanics in Miami-Dade county are Cuban, the other half from other countries. Many of the Latin American immigrants in Miami have money before they get here, and come in on visas. Interestingly, Miami is the most likely city in America you will be addressed in Spanish first in my experience, very similar to Montreal, they quickly switch between two languages.

Patty_Melt's avatar

I wonder why the step on dry land policy ended. Does anyone know?

JLeslie's avatar

@Patty_Melt I don’t know the exact answer, but as soon as we started allowing travel and some commerce for tourists, I assumed that policy would go away. Other Latin Americans felt it was very unfair. In Florida specifically, once in a while there would be a flare up about it being racist, because Haitians who make it here, who had practically anarchy in their country the government is so dysfunctional or nonexistent, and incredible poverty, weren’t given asylum like the Cubans.

Republicans care a lot about the Cuban vote in Florida for obvious reasons, so republican politicians typically wanted Cubans to be able to get papers easily, and previously they did, they basically had no concern about being deported. There was that one big case, Elian Gonzalez, the boy who made it here, but his mom died. His relatives here wanted him to stay here if you remember, even though his father wanted him back in Cuba. Want to see Republicans rioting in the streets, blocking traffic, and setting fire to tires, look up the riots in Miami around that case. I was living in South Beach in Miami at the time. They were out of control.

Quite honestly, politics aside, The Cubans were marching, waving the Cuban flag, and for the life of me I don’t understand wanting to keep that boy in America and waving the Cuban flag! In my opinion they should have been waving the American flag. If they appreciate the freedom here, and want the child to stay here, some patriotism would have been nice. They hate the Democrats, because they feel Kennedy made a deal with Castro and let Cuba go into communism and ruins, and so they are Republicans. The older generation anyway.

Patty_Melt's avatar

I do remember that case, vividly, but the details were confusing, because the news where I was had several conflicting points, more than just waving a Cuban flag. I never did really understand what was going on with that. The boy’s own parents were divided as to where he should live.

JLeslie's avatar

@Patty_Melt The mom left for America, and took her son with with her. I don’t remember if the father was ok with it, or if he even knew beforehand she was going to attempt the crossing. Either way, once the mother died, the father wanted his son back. I don’t see how anyone supported keeping the boy from his dad. Cuba has a lot of things wrong with it, but it isn’t the worst of the worst.

Patty_Melt's avatar

I just kept wondering if she left because they were in an abusive home. She might have felt what she did was her only way to keep her boy safe. It would be a cruel twist of fate if that were the case.

JLeslie's avatar

@Patty_Melt Oh I see. A valid concern. The American relatives never said or accused the father of anything like that. It was local news for me fairly consistently being reported, plus the national reports, and I don’t remember that being said. The relatives just talked about giving the boy the life the mother wanted.

I would assume America did some question and investigation about it before making their decision. I did some google and here is information on the parents. They were married, then divorced, then had Elian. Elian was with his father a lot. It looks like the mother left Cuba with her new SO, I hadn’t remembered that. Maybe it had more to do with him pushing the idea? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biography.com/.amp/political-figure/eli%25C3%25A1n-gonz%25C3%25A1lez

The one thing that bothered me about the operation when they took Elian back was that his father wasn’t there in Miami for the boy to be with immediately.

The other thing I wondered at the time was if America simply could have granted him recently for the future, and then the relatives here maybe would have felt better to return him. For instance now, if he came here on vacation, he would be given a green card almost immediately, and able to stay, because he had made it here previously under the old laws. If he had just simply been returned quietly he never would have become a Cuban national figure.

JLeslie's avatar

Typo: not recently, it should be residency.

flo's avatar

@Patty_Melt would you or @All post a link of a video where Trump said that? Re. @flo, yes. Trump did say something like that the other day.”

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